Eat the Damn Peach, and Other Love Stories (with Mary Catherine Starr)

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Intro – 0:00

 

BLAIR HODGES: Welcome to Relationscapes. We're mapping the stories and ideas that shape who we are and connect us to each other to build a better world. Our guide in this episode is artist Mary Catherine Starr.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I was just asking you to show me that you could think of me and put someone else's desires or needs first. And like, he couldn't believe I was this upset. There was a whole fight, and, you know, he was like, "It's just peanut butter," you know? And to me, it was like, "It’s so much more than peanut butter! It's showing that you care!" And so even now, twenty years later we’ll say, "It's not about the peanut butter."

BLAIR HODGES: Mary Catherine Starr’s Instagram comics about marriage, motherhood, and the mental load have resonated with millions—mostly women—around the world. She joins us to discuss why her work connects so deeply, and why it’s less about offering fixes and more about experiencing catharsis. Sometimes it just feels good to state the obvious—in comic form—about the quiet buildup of resentment in a relationship, the slow work of therapy, and how peanut butter, peaches, and soap can become symbols of something much bigger.

Her new book is called Mama Needs a Minute: A Candid, Funny, All-Too-Relatable Comic Memoir About Surviving Motherhood. And we're talking about it right now. 

 

In Memory of Moonlight the Fish – 1:46

 

BLAIR HODGES: Mary Catherine Starr, welcome to Relationscapes.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

BLAIR HODGES: Right out of the gate, I wanted to ask you—this is really important to me—I wanted to ask you about Moonlight the fish. Is Moonlight still with us?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Oh, no. And you know what's so funny? No. Both of the fish—well, the first fish obviously died very quickly—both the fish are gone. And right now, actually, I need to make a follow-up comic about this, because I have an empty tank that has not been dealt with. I mean, it's full of water.

All the stuff is still in there. There's a dead snail in it, actually, and that's it. And it's still sitting in the playroom. And no one has dealt with it because I haven't dealt with it. So, yeah, we just have an empty... basically, it's like a watery grave for one snail now in our home.

BLAIR HODGES: Did you have to bury Moonlight yourself or what happened?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: No, I think I just flushed Moonlight when everyone was at school and that was the end of that.

BLAIR HODGES: Well, I want to dedicate this episode to Moonlight then, if that's okay.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: The only pet my children have had didn't last long.

Going Viral about Relationship Inequality – 02:42

 

BLAIR HODGES: Okay, well, you started off doing this Instagram account, and it was dedicated to these little comics you were doing about mom life. And it seemed to you like kind of a fun side project. And one of these talks about Moonlight—that’s why I ask about Moonlight. But there was this day in 2022 when one of your posts finally went viral.

And it was called An Illustrated Guide to the Double Standards of Parenting. And I wondered what it was like, in practical terms, going viral. How did you experience it?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of everything everybody says it is. It's overwhelming, it's exciting, it's intimidating. It's a little scary. Because you get way more attention than you ever expected. So, I mean, it's a mixed bag. Ultimately, I'm very thankful I went viral. That's the reason I was able to write the book I wrote.

It's the reason I’ve gotten to reach so many more people with my message that I really care about. But it was a shock. And I think the way I went viral—I mean, it's pretty rare now for static posts to go viral this way. Video posts go viral this way all the time.

But I think I was right before the reels hit Instagram and everything changed with TikTok. And so I’m lucky in that—I think it would be very hard for a comic like that one, with multiple panels, to go as viral as it did now. But yeah, I mean, it was... it was wild.

People just from all over the world. And that's the thing I think that was so surprising to me—I didn't know that. Like, when I went viral, I went viral here, and then I went viral in Brazil, and then I went viral in Turkey, and it kept coming in these waves.
Then there was a second wave of virality when it got picked up by another whole kind of area. So it was wild. It lasted really long. And I went from 15,000 followers to 200,000 in a matter of months. So it was very—a very wild time. But I went viral later for a negative reason.

So now, in retrospect, the first viral moment was amazing because it was mostly positive.

BLAIR HODGES: What was the negative one?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: It was the post I did about peaches. About “eat the damn peach.” The damn peach, yeah. So it went viral on Twitter with a bunch of men who took it out of context. And it was a lot of, actually, young boys, I would say. And they all came over from Twitter to attack me on Instagram.

They were really nasty and horrible, and that was a much darker time. So the first viral moment—now looking back—I’m like, oh, that was nothing.

BLAIR HODGES: Did you see any trolling happen with the first one?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, yeah, I did. But in comparison, it was mostly a lot of women coming over and saying, “Oh my gosh!” And men too—people saying, “Yes, this is true. I’ve experienced this.”

But yeah, of course, there were the angry men who thought I was out to say dads are failing, which is not at all the point of that comic.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, the comic is about social perceptions of what parenting is like. And so I can describe it here. It’s An Illustrated Guide to the Double Standards of Parenting. And then, on the left side, you’ve got a dad and it says “Fun Dad,” and he’s coming in the door with a bag of fast food.

And then next to him, you’ve got “Lazy Mom,” and she’s coming in the door with a bag of fast food. And then you’ve got a dad with his kid and it says “Babysitting,” and then you’ve got a mom with her kid and it says “Parenting.” And it just goes through all these ways that—I mean, I’ve experienced all of these.

So for this one to hit—why do you think this is the one that finally hit? Because you’ve done a lot of great comics up until then. Do you think there was something about this one, or do you kind of see... hey, sometimes something just hits? Do you think it was the message itself that resonated big, or—

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I think it was. I think it's the simplicity of the message. I think it’s the double panel of moms and dads doing the exact same thing. Just a simple image with one word above it—or two words—that describes it. And I think because of the simplicity of it, it struck in a way that was very clear and relatable.

And I think the examples I give now—I’ve talked about them so much now in other formats—but I think for some reason, just side by side, same exact thing, mom vs. dad... something about seeing it that way struck a chord.

And it was one of those comics I’d been thinking about. I had come up with the idea probably three or four months before I actually made it. And I was thinking about it—oh, I’ve got to get that one done, I want to do that one, I want to do that one. And I finally got around to doing it, and then it just caught like wildfire.

 

The Power of Comics – 07:01

 

BLAIR HODGES: Yes. Like I said, that was the first one I remember seeing as well.

You mentioned in this book that you’ve read a lot of books on motherhood and about household inequality. And now you’ve actually written one.

So how do you see yours situated within that genre? How does yours differ? Where is it the same?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Well, I think I was reading a lot of those books, especially when I was in the dark days of early parenting—when I was really lost and overwhelmed.

And it was kind of like I found myself in this place where I never thought I would be, where it’s like, how did I fall into this “traditional” mothering role despite trying to do everything in the contrary? Like, how did we get to this point? And so I started reading a lot about all of this—feminist mothering, household equality, imbalance—what’s going on here? And all the books I read about it had a lot of data and were well researched. I mean, they were great books.

But I felt like I left them feeling even more overwhelmed. And they would have takeaways or things you could do, but they felt like just another thing on my to-do list. And it was building up more and more that I needed to do to fix this. And so the book I wanted to write, the conversation I wanted to have, was more of what I wanted to read at that time. Which I think was someone saying, “It’s not your fault that you’ve gotten here. You’re not a bad mom. You’ve got all these things working against you. You’re not alone. Here’s why.”

And then: “Yeah, this sucks.” You know? I didn’t want to have 10 more things to add to my to-do list of how to fix this. And “Now my husband and I need to sit down and do this, this, this, and this to get out of this mess.”

I wanted that later. And I’m working through that now. But I think when I was really in it, I just wanted to feel seen and understood. And so that’s what I wanted to do with this book.

Of course, I try to offer some little glimmers of, “Here’s some things you can do,” and I hope people can learn from my mistakes. But ultimately, I just wanted people to feel seen and less alone—and maybe not blame themselves for how they’ve gotten into this place where they’re overwhelmed.

BLAIR HODGES: And the biggest difference for me, having read a lot of these books, is that you do it through the medium of comics.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: And I wonder what you think about that as an artist. What can comics do that other mediums can’t do?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, they feel like a really great entry point. They’re less serious, they’re less intense, they’re less overwhelming. I think for an exhausted parent, sometimes a book you can dip in and out of really easily, that doesn’t feel like you have to be super awake or really cerebral, or in that place of, “Okay, I’m gonna sit down and fix this.”
But it feels like something you can dip into—it can make you laugh, it makes you think, you can put it down. It seems a little easier.

And then I also think, at least from the feedback I’ve gotten from a lot of my followers, that it’s a lot easier to take to your spouse. Right? So, always, women often will tag their male partners in the comments, be like, “LOL, it’s us.”

And it’s not the greatest story, but it’s like they can laugh about it, and then it kind of starts this dialogue. And it’s a much less intense way to bring this stuff up. And I think especially if you’re laughing at someone else’s, “Oh my God, I can’t believe her husband did that,” you can say, “Oh yeah, well, you’ve done something like that before too.”

And it enables people to have, I think, a less intense, emotionally fraught discussion about these really important topics.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, it makes it really easy to share. That’s the first thing that came to mind for me too. If I’m reading a book—like a regular, no-pictures kind of thing—it’s sort of like building a house of cards. You’re going through a whole chapter, they’re building their case. Right?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: And it takes a lot of extra work. With a comic, I can just snap onto a page, read that—it’s done—and then I can be like, “Hey, check this out, look at this.” And it’s quick.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I hadn’t even thought about that. Yes, that’s exactly it.

BLAIR HODGES: I don’t have to be like, “Okay, I want you to read this paragraph, but I need to set up the whole chapter and give you the context and da-da-da.” With this I’m like, “Here you go. Look at this.”

MARY CATHERINE STARR: You’re so right. You’re so right. Yeah, I think that’s exactly it. And you know, I didn’t set out—when I started making these comics—I did not set out with that kind of grand, big picture.

BLAIR HODGES: Sure, sure. It wasn’t “change the world.”

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Exactly. And, “I’m going to say this, I’m going to have this conversation in a way it’s never been had. And I’m going to introduce it in these really bite-sized—” I mean, there was none of that. It wasn’t pre-planned. It just happened.

BLAIR HODGES: We undervalue comics. I think we really do. They’ve been cheapened in the public mind. A few years ago I started reading graphic novels and fell in love with them. I’m a big reader—I mostly read “regular” books—but I’ve added graphic novels and illustrated stuff because I think of the power that I mentioned of sharing. [930]
But also, it’s more visceral—seeing the images. And your style of art is so yours. What you do with it—your images are just really powerful.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, I agree. And I think that’s... I also am a huge reader, and I mostly read text-based books, but I've also had this awakening as I’ve gotten into making comics, which is, you know, as someone who was much more like... you know, considered myself more of a fine artist, it was like I had to make the mental adjustment, like: this is still art. It's just a totally different way of expressing yourself.

But now I—yeah, now I love it. And I can't get enough of graphic novels, because I think that they just—yeah, like you said—they capture emotion. And you also get to know, I think, the writer or the illustrator in a very different way, because you see them kind of how they see themselves. Or how they—you know, you're seeing it through their eyes in a way that’s not just text-based, but also visual.

 

Drawing Herself on the Toilet – 12:11

 

BLAIR HODGES: I wanted to ask you about that, because I wondered what it was like for you to repeatedly draw yourself—and often not in the most flattering circumstances. I mean, like on the cover, you're sitting on the toilet, your pants are down. On the cover of the book.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I know. When we picked the cover, one of my friends—I sent it to them—my friends being like, "What do you think?" One of my friends said, "You know, I think it’s... but do you really want to be standing by posters of yourself on the toilet for a year, promoting this book?"

And I was like, yeah... maybe, maybe I do.

But yeah, I mean, I think what I love about comics is that it doesn't feel super personal, you know? And the reason I started making them—
I had my... I had a small personal Instagram feed that was associated with a blog, just a written blog that I had been doing for years.

BLAIR HODGES: Wow.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, back in the day. That’s like where I got my start. But I—

BLAIR HODGES: Was it a Blogspot, by the way?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: It was not. It was—weebly. Weebly.com. Even better.

BLAIR HODGES: Excellent.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: More ridiculous. But I blogged for like 10 years, so I got very comfortable with sharing my story online. But I was sharing photographs, you know? And then when I had kids, and I started talking on my blog and on my personal Instagram just about kind of the challenges of parenting, I felt like there was no way—I didn’t have images to go with that. You know? It’s like, now we’re moving toward this more image-based economy, and I'm like, I'm not gonna put up a picture of me smiling with my happy baby, and then underneath be like, “I'm dying, we're not sleeping,” you know?

But I didn’t want to put up pictures of us looking like a hot mess, because that... you know, that's not what—at that time, Instagram was all about making things look pretty. So I feel like I didn't have—
It was like I was looking for some sort of image I could put up with this, like, truth. You know, the real side of things.

And so I think drawing was a way I could kind of depict myself as a hot mess, or how I was feeling, without actually showing a picture of me in my messy home, you know, totally overwhelmed.

It’s like a little removed from the personal for me. So I think drawing myself feels like that too. It feels like I'm drawing a character who’s based on me. So it doesn't feel as vulnerable.

BLAIR HODGES: There's a few places where you mention struggling with body image issues, especially earlier in your life—like when you first met the man who you'd later marry. You talk about having an eating disorder. And I wondered about that in terms of drawing yourself—if you've had to kind of reckon with how you process body image issues, and then as you're drawing yourself in your own body.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: There’s a picture of you delivering your child, so you're naked on the table, right?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Right. Yeah. You know, again, it's really funny, because I don't think I’ve put this together until you ask these very insightful questions. It's like I don't think of the “me” as me when I draw the comics. I mean, I do—you know, it’s definitely my story—but it’s almost like I'm just creating these little pictures that tell the story.

But it’s not necessarily, I’m not, like, worried about how my body looks or how I'm drawing myself. Because it does feel like it’s just like a kind of whimsical little depiction of this moment.

So, yeah, it is. I’m a little removed from my cartoon self, I guess.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, that’s interesting. Because it is you. Like, I can tell it’s you, which is cool. because you don’t do faces. It’s part of your style. And a style that you share with some others is, like, you draw the outline of the person, but without the facial features.

So tell me about, like, that decision. Maybe that's part of it? Of, like, not making it too you?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, I think you might be right about that. And the reason I got to this—again, it's like a happy accident, you know. But way back in the day, when I—before I was ever doing comics—I... actually, when my husband and I got married, I made a little what I called, like, a wedding logo for our wedding.

And I drew just our—the outlines of our heads. I wanted, like, a simple line drawing that would go on our programs and stuff like that. So it was just, like, our heads. And I shared that to my blog. You know, “This is my fun little wedding logo.”

And then people liked it, and so people started asking me to do them for them.
So I had this little side hustle on my Etsy, where I would do wedding drawings or wedding logos for people. People would make them into, like, temporary tattoos. It’d be the couple. That was like the way I started drawing people. And it was just like a fun thing. I felt like it was really cool how you could capture the essence of somebody just from the face shape of their head and their hairline, or their hair.

BLAIR HODGES: Wait, so had you not seen that kind of thing happening?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: You know, I don’t know.

BLAIR HODGES: I mean, I think maybe it's kind of popular now. I see it more often.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: But there must have been something else, you know, I don’t feel like I started that.

BLAIR HODGES: I think I was trying to figure out if you're the pioneer. Come on.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I don't think so. It wasn't that big. No. I think it was probably just—

BLAIR HODGES: "We’re here with the creator of the simple line drawing of people: Mary Catherine!"

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I wish I could credit myself for that. No, I really think I must have just seen it, you know, out in the ether, on Etsy or whatever. But, like, I just—yeah. But that's just how I got used to drawing people.

And then it was like—when I started making these comics—it was just kind of easy. It's much quicker. It's much easier. I didn't have to obsess over the facial expressions. You know, it’s just like, “Oh, I’ll just do this.”

And then now, of course, I like it because I think people can see themselves more in the comics too, you know. Because maybe you don’t have the same hair color as this figure I’ve drawn, but it's not like you're seeing their face.

You don’t see a lot about them. So it is kind of like a faceless husband and wife, or a faceless mother and children, or, you know. And I think you can kind of insert yourself a little bit more that way.

BLAIR HODGES: And you have to be creative in how you help the characters emote too, because face does so much. And so instead, you’re using like, lines around their heads—

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: Body positions. So to find creative ways to depict tension or sorrow or pain or joy—
It’s fascinating to see how you can do that without the face. Because the face says so much. We use the face as humans so much.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. Every once in a while I'm like, okay, I’ve just got to put some, like, crazy eyes in here or something, you know? Every once in a while I’ve got to rely on a little bit of a facial expression. But, yeah.

 

Soap and Peanut Butter – 17:38

 

BLAIR HODGES: Well, hey—let's talk about soap and peanut butter. Now, these are two things that don’t seem to mix, but your book uses each as a symbol of relationship inequality. So let’s begin with soap. A story about soap.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yes. My husband—now husband—and I met in college, and one of the first interactions I really remember was when he IM’d me back in the day on our little college computers and asked if I had any soap he could borrow. He lived in a house of—I don’t remember exactly—six or eight guys, and no one in the whole house had a bar of soap. He needed to shower.

I did have some extra soap, so I threw it out my dorm room window to him, waiting below. He grabbed it, and I don’t know if we talked again for a couple months after that. But in the book, I talk about how, looking back, it’s funny to me that our relationship started with him needing help with a basic care task and me supplying it. And here we are 20 years later, still having those same little back-and-forths about household needs.

BLAIR HODGES: And you dig into your own psychology about it, too—that there was something about it that was almost endearing, or you felt like you were being helpful and you liked that.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. There were a lot of times in our early years of dating when I wasn’t a mother yet—just an unencumbered college kid—when I liked being able to help him with things, kind of teach him, and take care of him in a way.

When he went to law school, I remember visiting him and helping him pick out a “bed in a bag” from Bed Bath & Beyond—sheets and a comforter all in one bag. He thought it was so cool, and I thought, look at me helping him get sheets. There was something kind of nice and familial about that.

I think a lot of people—maybe especially women—find themselves enjoying helping to teach their “man-child” partners at the beginning how to navigate the world. But down the line, that need to take care of your partner can get really old, especially once you’re taking care of actual children.

BLAIR HODGES: Right. And also, how your partner takes care of you—which brings us to the peanut butter story.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yes. This chapter, more than any other, has prompted people to message me saying how enraged it made them. A lot of women who’ve been married way longer than I have have told me, “Oh, we all have a peanut butter story.” It resonates on a deep level.

The short version: I was studying abroad in France in college. My husband, who had already graduated, was living with his grandparents and working. He was coming to visit me for break, and I asked him to bring me some peanut butter from the U.S.—because the peanut butter in France at the time was gross, expensive, and came in tiny jars. I was dying for some good old American Jif.

BLAIR HODGES: Fifty percent wax.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Exactly. Gross in hindsight, but at the time, a craving. I asked him multiple times—every time we talked. The night before he was coming, I said, “Did you get the peanut butter?” He said, “Oh, no, I haven’t gotten it yet, but I’ll see if I can get it tomorrow before I come.”

I told him, “Please, it’s all I want from you.” I was thinking, If it were me, I’d bring him a whole extra suitcase full of peanut butter. This was such an easy win—a way to show me he was thinking of me.

So he showed up in France. We had a wonderful reunion in Paris. We got to our little hotel and I asked, “Did you bring the peanut butter?” He said, “Oh, yeah. I had Grammy—his grandmother—pick some up at the store this morning.” So, the day of, he sends his grandmother to get it.

He pulls it out—it’s the smallest jar of peanut butter I’ve ever seen. I didn’t even know they made them that small. I was obviously angry, but I thought, Okay, okay, just let it go. I hadn’t seen him in months; here we were. I said thank you and moved on.

A few days later, we were in Italy. I was in the shower.

BLAIR HODGES: I just want to give a trigger warning here—prepare yourselves. You’re going to get angry.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I came out of the shower, and he’s sitting on the bed with my jar of peanut butter open, scooping it out with his finger—eating it straight from the jar. Obviously, I lost my mind.

The least he could have done was not eat it—the one treat he brought me, that I begged for, that I’d been expecting in a huge jar or multiple jars. It became a huge moment in our relationship. We had a big fight. We ended up breaking up in Italy.

BLAIR HODGES: There’s a lot of squiggle lines around your head in this part.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. But, you know, to me, this story—and the reason I think it resonates with so many people, especially women—is like, I was just asking you to show me that you could think of me and put someone else's desires or needs first.

If it had been me, I would have done so much. I would have gone so over and beyond because it's such a simple, wonderful thing to do. Or you could have sent me care packages of peanut butter. You know? There's so many things.

But instead, it was like he couldn't believe I was this upset. There was a whole fight, and, you know, he was like, "It's just peanut butter," you know? And to me, it was like—it’s so much more than peanut butter! It's showing that you care!

And so even now, 20 years later we’ll say, like, "It's not about the peanut butter." It's this symbol that I think so many people have felt in their relationship—it's not about that. It's about what's behind that. The message that you're sending me by not doing this one thing I asked you to do that means a lot to me. So yeah.

 

Pregnancy To-Do Lists – 23:38

 

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. And then by the time you—like you said—you ended up getting married, you’d lived together for about a year. So there must have been some other reasons you liked him. Other than the peanut butter, of course. [laughter[ But you'd been through a lot at this point—losses and disappointments, difficult family issues, and moves. And moving is a challenge. So you'd been through that.

And you say you expected parenting—now that you were going to do it—to be hard, but you also felt pretty experienced. You'd been together for ten years at this point. You’d had a dog, so of course—

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, the old starter child.

BLAIR HODGES: Exactly. But you felt completely clueless, in retrospect, about what you might have anticipated—even after ten years. That just made me think, wow, some people start having kids right away and don’t have all that other stuff. Do you feel like waiting gave you some kind of advantage? Or do you think, actually, maybe you didn’t learn the lessons that would’ve helped?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I think for us—you know, it’s different for everybody—but I’m glad we had all that time, because we did have ten really wonderful years of just the two of us. I think we solidified how much we love being together.

I wonder sometimes if we would’ve made it through the first really hard years of parenting if we didn’t have that. If I didn’t have that. When things got really tough between us, it was good to know that underneath all that, we had a lot of history. We really love each other. And when we weren’t parenting together, we were really great.

So that helped me get through those harder times. Now we’re definitely on the other side, in a much better place than we were—kind of—at the time I was writing this book. Or rather, I was writing it as we were already coming out of that phase, so I was able to look back.

But yeah, for us, I think it was great that we had that time before—so we know each other as non-parents. We know who we really are. So when that really stressful time hit—when we both turned into people we aren’t normally because we were so sleep-deprived and overwhelmed—we had that to hold on to.

BLAIR HODGES: So as you're pregnant, there’s a comic in the book set during the pregnancy.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: It shows you and Ben sitting on the couch. You’re in your second trimester and ready to start planning, getting specific. So you're like, "Okay, here’s what we need to do. We need to start planning this."

And Ben’s response is basically, “Hey honey, we need to relax. You just need to relax.”

Not the best response at that point. It’s just like, "You’re worried? Just relax."

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yes. That’s kind of a theme for us—where I’m spinning out and he’s like, "It’ll all work out." And I’m like, "It’ll work out because I’m going to make it work out," you know?

So yeah, it’s a long-term dynamic we have.

BLAIR HODGES: Okay, to give people an idea of what was going through your head—this is on page 60 of the book—I thought I’d have you read Mary Catherine’s Pregnancy To-Do List and then on the following page, Ben’s Pregnancy To-Do List.

So let’s have you read through this list—for prospective parents, for people who are glad they’ll never be parents, for people who are thinking of becoming parents.

Whatever.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. I think the reason this feels important to include in the book is because it shows that the imbalance started when I was pregnant.

And I didn’t realize it at the time. At the time I just thought, This is the stuff I’m focused on because I’m the one who’s pregnant. But I figured once the baby was here, he’d be more engaged in all this stuff. So my pregnancy to-do list was:

• Go to regular doctor’s appointments
• Paint and decorate the nursery
• Read books about pregnancy, labor, and breastfeeding
• Make a birth plan
• Ask other moms and research supplies
• Complete baby registry
• Buy supplies not on the registry or not received
• Research doulas and schedule calls
• Interview doulas
• Put together nursery furniture
• Clean second-hand changing table
• Wash, fold, and organize baby clothes
• Set up diaper changing station
• Get breast pump and feeding supplies
• Figure out and set up baby monitor
• Install car seat
• Screen childcare providers
• Schedule interviews
• Hire childcare provider
• Schedule birthing class
• Schedule hospital tours and classes
• Make hospital packing lists
• Pack hospital bag

BLAIR HODGES: I think I have a sound effect for that. [Applause sound]

MARY CATHERINE STARR: There we go. Just a few small things to do during pregnancy. And then Ben’s list was:

• Attend classes and appointments that Mary Catherine schedules

• Add baby to health insurance
• Set up college savings account
• Help paint the nursery
• Help pick up and carry nursery furniture upstairs
• Attend childcare provider interviews that Mary Catherine sets up
• Pack my hospital bag
• Pack snacks for the hospital when MC goes into labor

BLAIR HODGES: I think I have a sound effect for that one too.

[The Price Is Right sad trombone loser music]

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Amazing. Yes, thank you for that.

BLAIR HODGES: Now, there's something really subtle here that I want to point out. In both of these illustrations, it’s your hand holding the lists.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Absolutely it is. I am the list maker. Of course. “Here’s your list.”

BLAIR HODGES: Honey, that alone says so much—seeing your little painted fingernail there. You’ve done both these lists.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, yeah. And I think, again, it’s so easy to rationalize away small instances. You can say, “Oh well, it’s because in this situation it’s that—because I’m the one who’s pregnant” or “I’m the one who likes organizing” or “I like setting up rooms and decorating.”

BLAIR HODGES: You like it.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, I like it, right? So of course I’m the one doing it.

But I think when you’re doing that for so many different aspects of parenting—even before the baby comes—it’s going to flow right into: now the baby’s here, and I’m continuing to take on more and more.

And part of that is our personalities. Part of that is our socialization. Part of that is the expectations put on us once we become parents.

And then part of it is that he’s not stepping up—and I am stepping up too much. There’s a lot at play.

My point in sharing all this—from what happens during pregnancy to even wedding planning—is that’s where couples can start to set up these dynamics where the female partner ends up doing way more.

And this is—of course—within heterosexual couples. But I just think these dynamics get started really early.

We haven’t talked about this much, but I felt like we were very egalitarian before we had kids—like, with household chores and everything.

And somehow, along the way, things just really changed. This book is kind of an exploration of how and why they changed. And I think what happened during pregnancy is an example of that.

BLAIR HODGES: That's Mary Catherine Starr, author and illustrator of Mama Needs a Minute! A Candid, Funny, All-Too-Relatable Comic Memoir About Surviving Motherhood. You can follow her on Instagram, @momlife_comics.

 

Negative Comments About Ben Roll In – 30:23

 

BLAIR HODGES: Mary Catherine, I wanted to talk to you a little bit more about Ben because he plays a big role throughout the book, and he's often in this book, at least kind of a source of frustration. And throughout the book, you take us back to this couch scene where you and Ben are sitting side by side and you're actually talking about the... about the topics that you're covering, the ideas you're bringing up. And, like, for example, he's like, "I can't believe you're gonna tell the peanut butter thing."

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: And I wondered, like, did you have any, like, real disagreements about what might be in the book?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: You know, not really. I mean, Ben, despite the fact that this book is, you know, very intensely about our relationship, he was pretty hands off. Like, he really didn't care about what I put in the book, which, you know, I think we've talked about this a lot since, you know. Because even as I was writing it, I'd say like, "Oh, I just wrote the peanut butter chapter. Do you wanna read it?" And he'd be like, "Nah, I'm good." And I'd be like, "Are you sure? You know this book is about us?"

But I think—and he said this—he has also, I think, been able to kind of separate himself. Like, obviously it's our story, but he does now kind of see himself as this character in this important kind of story I'm trying to tell about the big picture issue with our culture and our society and the expectations we have for parents. So I think he kind of sees himself as, like, the example of the every-dad or the every-man.

And, you know, I really did go out of my way to make sure that I at least had his voice in here. And I didn’t get verbatim his words, what he would say. But I know him pretty well. We've had many of these conversations many times. So it’s pretty easy for me to write him the way I think he would respond in these conversations. But yeah, he was surprisingly hands off. Which, I think if it was the opposite—if he was writing a book about our relationship—I’d want to read every word and have speech openings. 

BLAIR HODGES: That tracks with the whole dynamic. I can hear some listeners being like, "Mary Catherine, what? He didn’t read it? It’s the peanut butter all over again."

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Oh, no! I know, I know. But the thing is, he’s super supportive of it. Like, he really loves what I’m doing. So, you know, it's like, again, it's like different personalities completely and different ways of processing the world. And, you know, I want to talk about every little thing and share every little detail and mull over it and let's look back and let’s see how we—you know—and he's ready to move forward. And it's fine. Like, whatever I wanna say about the past is fine. It's okay. He's not stuck there.

BLAIR HODGES: He seems more easygoing than you. Do you feel like that's been a kind of a check for you or sort of—I think at some point you describe yourself as type A personality.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: Do you feel like there's kind of an interesting balance that happens there? Kind of like, okay, maybe it's good for me to relax a little bit?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I think it's one of the reasons we were initially, like, attracted to each other. And one of the things I like about him, and also that drives me crazy. And I think probably he’d say the same. You know, like, for the same reason that we balance each other out, we also just annoy each other. And so I think it can be good and bad. You know, I think if I were with another type A person, we might both drive each other insane, and it might be... the household would be, like, explosive, you know. But he’s definitely... he's very... in his own way, he's very routine-oriented and regimented in certain things, certain aspects. But, yeah, he definitely has much more of an ability to relax than I do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s for sure.

BLAIR HODGES: In terms of feedback—so when you post stuff about Ben, I’m sure sometimes you get comments that are like, “I would divorce him,” or, “Why don’t you—” like, do you get these sort of negative comments? "Girl, you need to kick him to the curb, Mary Catherine."

MARY CATHERINE STARR: All the time. And that’s hard. I actually really... I've done less and less of the super personal comics to Instagram for that reason. I mean, I still do it, but I’ve moved more of the personal, like, life—you know, our intimate stories—to my Substack behind a paywall so that the people who I feel like really get it and know why I—you know, why I love him and appreciate him in the same ways that I do—can at least get those and understand them in context. And then, you know, although I do still, of course, post personal stuff to my main feed, I've tried to do a little more of the big-picture societal commentary there and share other people’s stories too, so that it's... I just... so he gets a little less attacked on the Internet. Because it doesn't feel great. You know, I’m protective of him, despite... despite, you know, using our story. I don't want people to just, you know, rail on him all day.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, let’s go to one of these, like, kind of more generalized ones as an example. This is on page 220. And I’ll have you describe this comic to folks.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. So, yeah. So this comic—and the funny thing about this comic is—this actually was Ben's idea. He does give me ideas. He’ll say, like, “Oh, you know what would be so funny?” And he’ll even say, like, “If it was a picture of me,”—he makes fun of himself. So I appreciate that. He really... he gets it. So on this page, it's called Weaponized Incompetence: Tools of the Trade. And this was Ben’s idea. He said I should make it him. I have not. I've made it a generic man.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, I noticed this.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, it’s not—it's a little different—but it’s a man wearing a tool belt with all sorts of... of kind of, like, weapons or tools on it. And there’s an arrow with text pointing to each tool. So one of them is him saying, “It’s easier for everyone if you just do it.” Another one is, “You’re so much better at it than I am.” Another one, “You didn’t tell me I needed to do that.” Or, “I just don’t care about it as much as you do.” Or, “I don’t know where it goes.” “I've never done it before.” “It will take me so much longer.” And these are probably all things Ben has said to me. But also, you know, we all use weaponized incompetence in some aspects of our lives, you know. And I have—plenty of times—when I talk about this on the internet, you know, women—moms—will message me and say, “Oh my God, I’m the one who does that in my relationship.” So this is not just a man, you know. This is not just, like, a filthy man.

BLAIR HODGES: I feel like my wife does that around, like, technology stuff.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yes, yes.

BLAIR HODGES: Like, “I don’t know how to plug in my iPhone.” I’m like, “What if you just plug it in?”

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. Well, Ben will say to me, like, “I think you’re using weaponized incompetence right now.” And I would go, “Yeah, I am. Because I don’t want to take this on.” So I’m purposefully not going to ever do this. You know? Like, I don’t—Ben does all of our cooking. I really appreciate that. And I don’t like cooking. I’m not good at it. And so I purposefully don’t learn how to cook meat. Like, if you want meat, you gotta cook it. And I—you know—I admit that. He’ll say, like, “This is weaponized incompetence.” And I’m like, “Yes. It’s one thing I never want to take on. I don’t ever want to be the one who cooks our meat. So I’m going to continue to not learn how.” So, you know, I'm not—this is not just a, you know, something that men do—but it's definitely something that a lot of mothers have felt with their male partners around parenting tasks. It’s a very common issue there. So that’s kind of why I talk about it a lot in this book.

 

Separate Worlds Theory – 36:42

 

BLAIR HODGES: You said that you talk about some of the things you like more about Ben, like, on Substack and other places. What are some of those things? Like, if people wonder—because I do think people might get a skewed perception of Ben from the book.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Right, right.

BLAIR HODGES: So tell me a little bit more about that—like, what you value there.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Well, Ben is hilarious. He’s really, really funny. And that’s—I mean, you know, I make comics, I love laughing—and he has a really great sense of humor, and I’ve always loved that. And, you know, coming back to the comics, like, I think one of the reasons he appreciates them and can get behind me telling these stories is because he loves to laugh at them with me. Like, we really love to laugh together.

And so often I’ll show him a comic and he’ll die laughing. “Oh my God, that’s so good. That’s so true.” You know? So he has a great sense of humor. He doesn’t take himself too seriously, and he never has. He’s really passionate about the things he loves. When he gets into something, he’s super focused and really into it. And he’s just, like, a really... he’s—you can really count on him. He’s very reliable. He’s really steady in a lot of ways. And again, you know, like, sometimes that can be challenging. But as someone who gets easily spun up and easily anxious, like, he is a really steady and grounding presence in my life. And he always has been. And from the beginning of our relationship, he has been someone who's enabled me to slow down and rest more than I would otherwise. So I really, you know, I really appreciate that about him. Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. And I liked your separate worlds theory that you talked about and how you wish he would get into yours a little bit more. So I can see where you’re describing things that really draw you to him and can just feel that there’s there. Tell me about the separate worlds theory and how you think people can use that as a way to connect better.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. Well, so we were in couples therapy. We are now, too, but this is a different kind called Imago therapy that we tried for a little while. And in it, the therapist we worked with talked a lot about how, you know, we live in these two completely different worlds—Mary Catherine’s world and Ben’s world. And our worlds are shaped by everything we've learned from our entire life experience: from our family of origin, from, you know, the schools we went to, our friends, the cultures we grew up in, the places— you know, all of that shapes our world.

And so it's almost like visiting another country where you don't speak the language and you don't know their customs. And when you go there, you have to learn from the locals, and you have to learn how to be respectful, and you have to learn what you can and cannot do, and what you should eat and what you shouldn't. And it's just like visiting this completely new place. And she was saying, you know, I have to go visit his world, and he has to come visit mine. And when we're in each other's worlds, we have to be curious and try to learn about this new ecosystem, this new culture that we're in. And it's not going to be the one we're familiar with.

And so a lot of what she at the time was saying—we were kind of living in these two separate worlds, and we weren't taking the time to visit each other's worlds and be curious about them and want to learn. And so I think that is something I've thought a lot about. We are from such different worlds. Despite both being white middle-class people in the US, we've lived completely different lives. You know, now we've been together for 20 years. But even so, my experience has been a female one, his has been a male. He's been in this world—you know, he was in the legal world as a lawyer for a long time. I'm over here in this artsy, creativity, yoga world. Like, we walk in different planes, you know, a lot of the time. And not every couple does. Some couples are much more similar.

So anyways, that's been a helpful thing for me to think about, as we try to kind of learn to work together more as parents. Because that's—I think for us—that's been a huge learning experience.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, I think curiosity is really underrated. In fact, if I was to think about the kind of advice I might give someone who's thinking about getting married or moving in with someone or becoming more of a long-term partnership, I would say cultivating curiosity is one of the top things people can do to improve or build a relationship.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, one of the things as we talk about this that I just can't help but come back to is, for me, all of this—this parenting, writing this book, posting on Instagram—all of it, it's important to me to get this message out that another person being... making a decision over and over again to continue to live your life with another person is just really hard. You know, people are hard. We are so multidimensional. We all have so many challenges and issues and wonderful qualities. And I think, you know, that it's just not easy.

And that's something I want people to see. You have to work at it. You're going to go through times that are challenging. I've heard some people say that you have, like, you know, 20 different marriages over the course of your marriage if you're together for a lifetime. You know, and that you're married to a completely different person at different stages. And I think that the person I was in the early years of motherhood is a totally different person than I am now. Totally different person than the 20-year-old Ben started dating. You know, and I think same with him.

And so, you know, obviously this is a book that's about parenting and motherhood, but to me it's also about, like, the relationship that has—for a lot of us—is at the center of our families, and that's usually between the two parents. And so 100%, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, it's not easy. It's something you—if you want to stay with the person that you chose to marry or chose to procreate with—that takes work. And so that's another message I, you know, like to send.

But I don't—I think it's—I never want to say like, "Oh, I think the best choice is to stay married." I think for every couple, that decision has to be made on your own, especially after kids. But for us, that feels like what we want.

BLAIR HODGES: And I like you flagging the fact that different therapies are even out there. Like, the idea that, okay, yeah, we did this kind of therapy, now you're doing something else. And there are different types of therapy that are going to fit different situations too. And as you said, there are circumstances where separating does make the most sense or can be the most healthy choice—instead of the social stigma, which is, if you have kids and you're married and you get divorced, you ruined the kids or whatever. And it's—obviously it's more precarious for women, often for financial reasons and things like that, but it can be the better, safer decision sometimes.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. And when you come back to those messages, people are like, you know, "Why aren’t you divorced already?" or something. If I say something, you know, it makes me really mad because I am—given the content I'm putting out there—don’t you think that if I wanted to get divorced, I would? Like, I'm not under any illusion—disillusionment—about the state of hetero marriage in our country.

Like, most—the majority of marriages, the woman is being taken advantage of. You know, I mean, maybe I shouldn't say the majority, but from my—my data on Instagram, a lot of people are feeling taken advantage—

BLAIR HODGES: —of in some way, or inequality.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Totally. And when I say taken advantage of, I just mean that they're doing a lot more labor—manual labor around the house and, you know, visible labor. But yeah, so it's like, of course if I wasn't happy I would leave this marriage. But I am, and I love him. And so it's always kind of insulting too that people think that I... I wouldn't have the wherewithal if that's what—if that's what we needed. But it's not.

 

Addressing Domestic Labor Imbalances – 43:36

 

BLAIR HODGES: Fortunately for you too, there are other people in your life that carry more weight than randos on the internet. For example, your dad, who has a therapy background—speaking of therapy. And you're having at one point a really hard time in your marriage. This was during—or the pandemic was going on. This was kind of a breaking point for you. And I think for a lot of people when the household inequalities really came to the fore.

I experienced this with my partner and have talked about it in other episodes. But you had a really important conversation with your dad. What did he share with you at that time when you were like, "This just isn't working"?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. So my dad was visiting, and Ben and I—at that point, I was doing every night's bedtime. Like, I did bedtime every single night. And it was just because it was—I talk about this in the book—but we'd set up this kind of inadvertent preferred-parent situation because my daughter, my first child, never took a bottle, never took a binky. I was her everything—her source of soothing and food. So I was always the one who did bedtime because I would, you know, breastfeed her to sleep.

And then I became the only person who knew how to do bedtime. And then she only wanted me. And so then I was just the bedtime person forever. And then we had a second, and then he wants me too. And so, you know, here I am with two kids during a pandemic, and every night I'm going upstairs and slogging through this two-hour bedtime routine with two kids. And I'm coming down when it's over—it's like 9:30. I'm so pissed off. I'm so exhausted. You know? And so every night. Every night.

Yeah. And it was—you know, our kids are not great sleepers. They never have been. So the process was just so demoralizing. And my dad was visiting, and he's like, "Why isn't—wouldn't you ever have Ben put the kids to bed?" And I'm like, "Oh, it's just too hard. Like, they would lose their minds. We can't." And he's like, "Well, you know, sometimes in parenting you have to go through something hard to get to a place where it's easier." And I'm like, "Oh." And he's like, "Ben should just start putting them to bed. If you have to leave the house when he puts them to bed, you should leave the house." And I'm like, "Oh..."

You know? And so we had a longer conversation about it.

BLAIR HODGES: And then—this is your dad. This is like a different generation. He's the one that's supposed to be like, "Yo, being the proper wife."

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Right? Georgia?

BLAIR HODGES: He's supposed to be done smoking pipes with Ben.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yes. Luckily, my dad is nothing like that. Yeah. But so, you know, then it was like—it's like, of course. Why is Ben not—you know, our kids are old enough now. I'm not breastfeeding them both to bed. Why isn't Ben doing bedtime?

And so we pulled off the band-aid, and Ben started doing bedtime. And now we—here we are, however many years later—two years later—and we alternate bedtimes. You know, if we're both home, which our schedule—a lot of times one of us is out in the evening for work—but if we're both home, we alternate. And whoever's home puts the kids to bed. And it's like, not a big deal.

And it's been like—the nights I get to just do the dishes and listen to a podcast are like the best. You know? Like, I'm free. So, you know, there's so many things like that, that we did—again, we inadvertently, from early days of parenting, set up this dynamic where I'm doing everything in one area. And it's not that Ben can't. It's that it feels easier at the time for me just to do it. And now here we are six years later, and I'm still doing it all. And then I'm angry and resentful.

Whereas if we just said, "Nope, Ben's gonna do it now too"—which he can, and often he wants to. He likes doing bedtime. Like, it's fun for him because he hasn't been doing it for eight years miserably.

BLAIR HODGES: You know, the other thing is, he misses out on bonding with the kids.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Totally.

BLAIR HODGES: This is a beautiful time. That's like once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do it. So not only does it overburden one parent, but the other parent who’s not as involved is also missing out big time.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. And that's a point that I always want to make through my work. This is all hurting dads. And in our case, it hurts Ben too. And it's not his fault that we got to the point where I was doing everything. Just like it's not my fault either. There's so many other factors at play here. Part of it's parental leave. Part of it's job flexibility. From the beginning, I had a job that was more flexible. He didn’t. I was home more.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. That's what happened to my wife and I too.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: And it's like, he doesn't get to work—

BLAIR HODGES: She was taking care of her mom, so she's, like, home taking care of her mom. And we had the baby. I had a full-time job.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: So we started out with this very egalitarian mindset, but then practical matters were just like, okay, this just makes more sense right now. But then it got into all the patterns you described. And then we had to deliberately make changes to that.

That's part of the hard thing too—is the partner who cares more—

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: —is probably already doing more and then has to do even a little bit more to get the change happening. And I think that's where a lot of people—and for us, that's kind of where we would get stuck.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Absolutely.

BLAIR HODGES: I didn't really have any intrinsic drive in me to be like, "Hey, I should address this." Like, she had to bring it up, which is additional cognitive labor. [laughs]

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Exactly. Yes. You just hit the nail on the head. That is exactly it. And I think that's why we didn't make the switch to him doing bedtime too earlier. Because I would have to—it felt like so much work to be like, "Okay, we're gonna make the switch. Let's prep the kids. Let's make sure..." You know, all the things. And so it was just—it felt, quote-unquote, easier for me to keep doing it. Which ultimately it's not, and it wasn't. And, you know, now I have so much more freedom in my life.

And we've had to basically—I mean, this is not—some of this is in the book, but we are still peeling back all the layers from those first two, three years. You know, our kids are eight and five, and we're still going, "Okay, why am I still the one doing all this? You can do this too." "Yes, I can. You're right."

BLAIR HODGES: It's time to get in the car and go someplace. Like, who's getting the shoes and the coats and the—

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yes. And part of that's me stepping back. He's taking them somewhere? Okay, I'm gonna go upstairs and do what I need to do, and he's gonna have to get it all together. I'm not gonna hand him a bag with everything, because then he learns. And so there's just so many—I mean, it's like every facet of parenting and household management. You know, if you get in this imbalance, you have to kind of fight your way back. And ultimately, it's worth it to do that. But it is a lot of extra work for the person who's already overwhelmed.

 

Eat the Damn Peach – 49:16

 

BLAIR HODGES: And you say that the book is really more about catharsis, not so much about solutions. But there are, I think, a lot of solutions in the book. I see a lot of helpful advice, where you talk about taking more time for yourself, feeling less guilty about saying, "Hey, I need to be a self as well," which can feel selfish, or like you're neglecting your kids.
You talk about getting into therapy. You talk about anxiety medication when you needed that, making use of babysitters when you can. And of course, “eat the peach,” the one that caused a lot of blowback for you. Which is, say, what's the point of eating the peach? Because now people who know you can just be like, "Eat the peach," or put a peach emoji, and everybody knows what you're talking about.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Totally. Yeah. I got a tattoo of the peach! A lot of my followers—I don't know if you can see it—a lot of my followers have gotten it too. There's like 30, probably, plus people who have sent me pictures of their peach tattoo. So it's very cool.
Yeah, but the comic was one I made actually before anything went viral. It was like one of my first few comics. And it was a... it's based off of a complete normal—I mean, it's like so normal in my house.
It's silly, but whenever I buy fresh peaches, which we all love, I'm always seeing the peaches and saving them for the kids. Right?
Or—this is before—now I don’t. Now I’ve totally changed. But back in the day, when I made this comic, I would see the peaches and I would wait. When they were ripe, when they were fresh, I would cut them for the kids. I'd let them enjoy them. I might take like a half of a piece for my Ben.

BLAIR HODGES: The mom test.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yes, the mom—yes, exactly. But I was not eating—I was never gonna eat a whole peach by myself. Right? Because it was special food that the kids loved, even though I love peaches. And that’s kind of how I was with all fresh fruit.
And then Ben would often use a full fresh peach in his daily morning smoothie because he liked how much it—better—it made his smoothie taste.
Obviously indulgent. Yes, yes.

And so the comic is a picture—it’s side-by-side panels—and it’s me thinking, “Oh look, the last fresh peach. I’ll save this for the kids.”
And then looking at it and saying, “Oh look, the last fresh peach. I’ll use it in my daily smoothie.”
And the thing at the top of the page just said: One of the many differences between me and my husband.

So when I first shared it—back before it went viral for the wrong reasons—you know, it was just much like a commentary on...
I said in the caption, kind of like, “You know, I could use a little more indulgence—a little more eating of the peach—and my husband could maybe pull back and do a little less.”

And it was this commentary on: moms are always putting the kids first, dads are often putting themselves first. Or at least not thinking as much about the kids, whereas moms are always thinking about the kids.
And that one struck a chord. You know, it was a lot of women just saying, “Oh my God, I do it too. I never eat the fresh fruit anymore,” you know, blah blah blah.

Well, when I reshared it again—so it’s like two years later—that’s after I’d already gone viral. So I had a lot more followers, a lot more attention. I shared it with a similar thing, and underneath I said, like, “Hey moms, it’s time we start eating the peach.”
Like, we deserve fresh fruit too. We deserve treats too. Let’s not just save everything for the kids.

So it was much more of a call to arms. Like: let’s start putting ourselves first. Enjoy something. Yes, you deserve yummy things and fresh fruit.

And it got picked up on Twitter by some young angry men, I guess, and they turned it into this whole thing like: I’m an abusive wife who won’t let my husband eat the fresh peach that he earned with his hard-earned money, while I sat at home making comics and eating bonbons. Right? So that’s the dialogue.

Like then I’m just a lazy woman who has no job, and he works two jobs. So anyways, it just blew out of proportion. I was getting messages day and night. My husband Ben was getting emails from people who were telling him to leave me. People were calling me abusive. It was this whole thing.

BLAIR HODGES: Did anyone send actual peaches? Because if—

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Oh my God, no. I wish.

BLAIR HODGES: Put your money where your mouth is, people.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I wish. No. [laughter] I mean, the amount of animosity that this silly little comic brought up was shocking.

BLAIR HODGES: But I think it shows that there’s real stuff behind the silliness. And I think you know that too. It is a silly thing, but there's also a ton behind it.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. And the culture doesn't want moms and women to put themselves first. It's like, a mother should be the only thing. She should be self-sacrificial. And if she's not, she's a raging narcissist or something.
Yeah. So, yeah, that was a wild thing. But ultimately—I mean, I still think a lot of good came out of it, because I get messages to this day—and this was forever ago now, two, over two years ago.
I still get messages from moms when they eat—they take a picture of their fresh fruit and send it to me and say, like, “Ate this today. Thought of you.”

You know, and it’s like, I... there was a whole... I did a whole thing for a while on my feed where people would—every time a mom would, you know, eat the damn peach, we called it—every time she would, she would send me a picture of what she was eating and I would share it to my story.
And it was like this celebration of moms enjoying themselves and eating fresh fruit or treats.

And so, you know, ultimately I think it's been a wonderful thing, but it—

BLAIR HODGES: Was. Definitely sounds selfish to me. I don’t know. But you do you, Mary Catherine.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: How could you? How could you? You do you.

BLAIR HODGES: I was the guy on Twitter.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Oh, you’re one of many, let me tell you.

BLAIR HODGES: Do you have a favorite comic in the book? Maybe the peach one, or something else?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: You know, I haven’t been asked that question yet.
I mean, I really like some of the ones with my kids—like, some of the crazy stuff they said.
There’s one in particular about... it’s called What’s Your Favorite Butthole, I think. There’s some funny ones about just some of the crazy stuff kids say, and they love those. Like, they love to read my book and they love the ones that they're in. So it’s fun because those are the ones they always turn to.

And a lot of moms have told me that their kids love those—the ones where it’s a kid doing something silly. So maybe something like that. One of the more just, like, fun, silly ones.

 

Publishing a Book When the World is Burning – 54:43

 

BLAIR HODGES: I wondered, now releasing this book—you'd been working on it for a while, and then during a time of political turmoil, so... And I feel this way, doing this podcast is—I’ve recorded a lot of interviews and published them over time. And then the presidential election happened, and the world has changed in fundamental ways, and there’s so much damage happening.
And I wondered how it felt to be putting a book out right at that time. Did it feel like, oh wow, I don’t know? How did it feel? Because to me, sometimes I’m like, do I need to redo stuff, or do I need to, like... I don’t know?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. There was a time where I was like, is my book gonna be banned?

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. Yeah.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I mean, it still could be. I guess there’s still a possibility. But yeah. I mean, it’s funny because when I signed my contract for my book, it was a long time ago. And, you know, it was like... I guess it was late 2022. And they said, “Okay, your publication date is March 2025.”
And I was like, what? Like, that’s three years from now. I mean, it was 2020. I was like, what? And they’re like, “Oh, you know, this is the way it works, blah blah blah. You know, this is how long we need.” And I said, well, what if this isn’t relevant anymore?
And I remember my agent was like, “Mary Catherine, this topic’s been relevant for about 75 years—maybe even 100. Unfortunately, it’s not going anywhere. There will be angry moms who are feeling overwhelmed for a very long time.” And I was like, yeah, okay, you’re right.

So I feel like, you know, partly the content feels a little evergreen. But yes. I mean, I think I feel like there is an uprising of women who are pretty unhappy with the status quo, with the political climate, with what’s trying to be done to our bodies and our lives and our roles and our workplaces.

So I definitely feel like... I’m happy that I’m putting it out now. You know, I feel like it’s just continuing this conversation that we’ve been having online. I mean, I think the weird thing is that for me, it’s like such old—like, you know, this is what happened in my life then.
You know, this—when I stopped writing, it was three and a half years ago, and everything has changed. I mean, my whole—our relationship, my kids, my family. Dad then left his job as a lawyer, he’s now working—running his own business, and it’s a basketball training business. And he’s home, like, so much more.
It’s laughable. You know, so just—like, everything has changed.

So it’s weird to write a memoir, and then by the time it comes out, you’re like, oh... but that’s unrecognizable. Yeah. And at one point, yeah, I remember even saying to my editor, when it was getting close, I was like, “Should we add, like, some sort of addendum where I’m like, hey, just kidding—none of this is happening anymore?”
But, you know, it is weird. So I think... yeah, like, everything has changed since I wrote this book. But hopefully it’s still relevant and resonates, which, you know, so far, it seems like it has.

BLAIR HODGES: Well, every detail, I think, of the book is beautiful. Like, your art is wonderful. The stories you’re telling are so engaging. And fun. But then just the physical artifact itself is beautiful. You’ve got these beautiful paste-downs in the front—it’s what those are called, when you open the book. And the first thing you see are these little word bubbles.
It’s this nice, bright yellow color. It’s so inviting. And it’s got, like, a little bookmark that says, “Keep breathing, Mama.” That’s this fabric. It’s the... and the embossing. The—or is it debossing? Because it’s like—

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I don’t even know.

BLAIR HODGES: It is. It is.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yes.

BLAIR HODGES: It’s debossing.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Look at you. Yeah. I don’t even know what that’s called.

BLAIR HODGES: Yes. So front to back—what a terrific book. So good.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah. My publisher is Chronicle Books, and they really specialize in making, like, beautiful art books. And so I’m really... they—I think they just did an amazing job. I’m really, really grateful to them.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. The book is called Mama Needs a Minute!: A Candid, Funny, All-Too-Relatable Comic Memoir About Surviving Motherhood, by Mary Catherine Starr. She’s a graphic designer, illustrator, yoga teacher, and as I mentioned, you can follow her on Instagram at @momlife_comics.
And apparently, the young—the kids think comics are cringe now. Is this true?

MARY CATHERINE STARR: I don’t know. You’re telling me.

BLAIR HODGES: You said you got some feedback from younger unmarried people who are sort of like, “Ew, cringe.”

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, they think I’m cringe. They think I’m like, Boomer humor. Because they think everything is equal now. And there’s no problem with male and female dynamics once you have kids—but they don’t have kids yet. So let’s see.
I hope—I hope that this is no longer relevant by the time they’re having kids.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. Like, please make this an artifact.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Please! I’d love this to be Boomer experience. Yeah. But right now—ask any millennial—they will understand what I’m talking about.

 

Regrets, Challenges, and Surprises – 58:58

 

BLAIR HODGES: Well, I always like to close with “Regrets, Challenges, & Surprises.” And you can choose your own adventure on this one.
Anything you would change about the book now that it’s out? You mentioned maybe “Should we do an addendum?” or maybe there’s, like, a comic where you’re like, “Oh, it’s too unflattering of Ben.”
Or—by the way, I don’t think we ever see Ben’s butt, but I think you see, like, part of your butt. So maybe that’s a regret. Then challenges—like, what was hard about it? And then surprises—something you learned about yourself because of the book in particular.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, regret. I mean, that’s hard because I do feel very proud of this book, and I feel like it’s what I wanted to say.
I mean, I think there’s, like, on a small scale, there’s a couple comics I wish I’d maybe redrawn. Or, you know, little tiny details that no one else will probably notice—but I’m just like, “Oh, I wish I’d redrawn that.”
But I think the one thing that just still is kind of like... I just am unsure about is—I still do, I think I will always kind of have this nagging feeling of, like... because it is a vulnerable memoir—did I say too much?
You know, or did I... feeling protective of Ben or of my kids. Or like, did I... did I divulge too much?

And I think this is also kind of the challenge—maybe this is both—but walking the line, when it’s a memoir, between being authentic and true and vulnerable, and also protecting the people you love and not saying too much. Or protecting yourself from scrutiny of the public eye.
And so... I am proud of it. I think I said what I wanted to say. I also—I think I’ll just always have a little bit of a vulnerability hangover with it. You know? Just knowing it’s out there.
And I think so far, it’s been in the right hands, and people who get it and respect it—or at least that’s what I’ve heard. But obviously, I think there’s always this kind of fear that someone will read it and take it the wrong way. Or not in the way I meant it. And it will hurt someone I love.
So I think that’s—maybe that’s a regret and a challenge. But that’s always kind of there for me with a book like this.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, don’t read any one-star reviews.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: You don’t need to. Exactly.

BLAIR HODGES: If there are any.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Yeah, no, I don’t want—I’ve decided not to read any reviews. Unless my—unless someone sends it to me and says, “This is a really nice one I saw.”
I told my friends, I’m like, “If you see a nice one, send it to me. Otherwise, I don’t want to see it.”

BLAIR HODGES: Okay, well, to you directly, I will give you a mini review, which is—this is a terrific book. I love it. Had so much fun with it.
And I’m also—this is one that it’s easy to recommend because, again, you can dip in and out of it. The illustrations are engaging. So I’m recommending it to some guy—I have a friend who just had a baby. I’m like, “Hey, you’re gonna check this book out.”

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Thank you. Yeah. I love when—a lot of people have told me that they’ve read it, and they’ve given it to their husbands or they’ve left it in the bathroom and their husband’s picked it up.
And, you know, I really love—I’ve heard from a lot of people who’ve said their partners have really appreciated it. And so that is so exciting to me.
Because I think I expected women to read it. I did not expect as many men to read it—who have.
And so I’m really—I’m happy that—I hope that—I book my brothers. One’s already a dad and one’s about to have their first. And I’m like, “Please read my book before—” I mean, they have now.
But, you know, I was like, “Make sure you read it soon, before your baby comes.” Because I do think it can be just, like, a way in—to kind of see some of the mistakes. Again, like, learn from our mistakes. Some of the ways that we can fall into these traps.

BLAIR HODGES: Oh, and it’s brilliant to point out how early it starts. Because I think that’s what really often will get overlooked—even in people who plan on being egalitarian.
Pregnancy itself is—seems like it can be such an isolated thing. Or that so much is on the mom. But the other partner can be much more involved. The person who’s not pregnant can be much more involved at that stage and start there.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: But it takes effort. I mean, that’s—you know, it takes intentionality. And I think that’s the hard part.
You know, we’re all so inundated and busy and overwhelmed and overworked. And so it does—you have to be really intentional about it. And it’s easier for the woman to be intentional, because she is growing—most, a lot of families—she’s growing the baby in her belly.
And so she is reminded of it every second of every day. But it’s very easy if you’re the partner who’s not going to be the birthing parent to be off at work and forget about it for a little while.
And that’s not to blame anyone. But it’s not happening in your body.
And so I do think that the intentionality—it takes—it’s a lot of effort. And that’s one of the reasons that we fall into these traps. Yeah.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. Well, your book will help people avoid the traps, Mary Catherine. And thanks for taking the time to talk to us about it on Relationscapes.

MARY CATHERINE STARR: Thank you so much for having me. This was a great conversation.

 

Outro – 1:03:13

 

BLAIR HODGES: Thanks for listening to Relationscapes. If you're joining us for the first time, maybe Mary Catherine recommended the show, welcome! I hope you'll check out some other episodes, there is a lot to choose from. If you liked this one, Kate Mangino's episode about equal partnerships is a good companion to this one. And we're actually approaching the 50th episode, so there are a lot more to choose from.

I'd also appreciate if you would review the show in Apple Podcasts or rate it in Spotify. It helps build credibility for the show, it's great for when I reach out to guests, reviews can let hem know what the show is like and how it's resonating with people. So leaving a review can make a big difference.

Mates of State provides our theme song. Relationscapes is part of the DPN. I'm journalist Blair Hodges in Salt Lake City, and I'll see you next time. 

 

[Note: Transcripts are lightly edited for readability.]