Mini Episode on Divorce, with Heather Quick

Announcement – 00:01

BLAIR HODGES: Hey, it's Blair Hodges. Welcome back to another mini episode. Before we jump in, I have some exciting news to share.

We've spent a year exploring the history and evolution of family, gender, and sexuality. And now I've decided to give our show a new name. The thing is, I realized we've actually been talking about a lot more than just family. We're talking about human identity and how we connect with each other. We're talking about relationships—which includes family, but it's much more than that.

So after this episode, the show will be called Relationscapes. It'll still be pretty much the same show you already know. Thought-provoking conversations with incredible guides who help us explore human identity and human connection.

And you shouldn't have to resubscribe or do very much on your end to get the new episodes. They should drop right into your feed where Family Proclamations already is, hopefully.

I realize that changing the name is no small thing, I risk losing some listeners or confusing people. But overall, I think it'll be easier to recommend the show and hopefully it'll also just be more welcoming. This decision was made easier by knowing a little bit about you as an audience. I know you're interested in personal growth and in fostering better relationships. You're also interested in understanding diversity and challenging traditional norms. And that's what Relationscapes is all about.

If you're listening to the show in the Fireside feed, I invite you to subscribe directly to Relationscapes in January. Otherwise, if you're listening on Family Proclamations feed, things should just automatically switch over as the year closes out.

Thanks for being part of this journey with me. And here's to the next chapter of Relationscapes. All right, let's get to it.

Intro – 01:35

BLAIR HODGES: On this mini episode, the topic is divorce. It's a totally sucky thing that we're also pretty lucky to have access to. You might remember our discussion earlier with April White, the historian who talked about divorce in the 19th century and the incredible lengths women especially had to go to in order to get out of a bad marriage.

That all seems like ancient history today, but some politicians in America would like to go back to those days. There are some people talking about eliminating no-fault divorce. So in this episode I invited attorney Heather Quick to talk with us about no-fault divorce and why it would be a bad thing to get rid of it.

Listener Voicemail – 02:30

BLAIR HODGES: But before we get to Heather Quick, let's check out some listener voicemail. Got some great responses from people who listened to earlier episodes about divorce. First up is a message from a listener called Ben.

BEN: Hi, Blair. Thank you so much for what you do with the podcast. I really do think these conversations matter and make the world a better place. As a divorced man, I felt so seen and understood in the episode you did with Maggie Smith discussing her memoir, You Could Make This Place Beautiful.

In our culture, men are often stereotyped as the bad guys in divorces, or at least as less interested in deep emotional connection or intimacy. I think this is partly due to men being less likely to talk about feelings.

Anyway, for whatever reason, I've always been more stereotypically feminine in both my desire for closeness or relationships and talking about feelings. As long as I can remember, I have longed for emotional intimacy, romance, connection, and commitment. I wanted to be married more than anything, and experiencing divorce was more excruciating than I could have possibly imagined.

So, with that as context, what I loved most about this episode was Maggie's discussion of this deep suffering. I love this part in particular:

MAGGIE SMITH: In the case of the end of my marriage, experiencing that pain and grief and loss taught me a lot about myself. I don't know if I would have learned those lessons another way. That doesn't mean the scales are balanced. I'm not at all saying the lessons I learned about myself through my divorce made all this suffering for myself and my family worthwhile because they got me this lesson. No. I would always choose not to have the pain any day of the week. [Around the 29 minute mark.]

BEN: Earlier, she also talked about ambivalence regarding her kids, making it all worth it. Both of those hit me hard, because I can really relate.

It's also interesting that, at least in the context of her children, this was in response to someone asking if it was all worth it because of the kids. And whether it's about relationships or learning and personal growth or literal lives created, I have heard a lot of people ask these seemingly reassuring, leading questions, and frankly, I kind of hate them. [laughs] The questions, not the people.

The reason I hate these questions is that they often seem to come from a place of fear rather than genuine care and concern. It's not, “Can I help you feel better with this question?” It's, “Can you help me feel better by answering this question in a reassuring way?” They're looking for data to confirm that, you know, “Hey, I'm safe. I don't have to deal with that really uncomfortable possibility. There's no way life can get that bad,” you know, but it can. It does.

So, you know, part of my task, as I see it now in the face of my divorce, is to stop trying to make sense of it. And I think it's because there's no sense there to be made. But there are still things that make sense. I can connect with and empathize and have compassion for people who have gone through divorce, depression, suicidal ideation, and estrangement from children.

I didn't choose these things. And honestly, if I had the opportunity to go back, even if that would mean losing people, relationships, experiences, whatever, I really might take it because the pain was just that bad.

But I can't do that. It's not an option, you know? So my making the most of my senseless experience of grief and loss looks like not giving up on love, on people, and trying to find ways to be there for people who, frankly, I wish I had never been able to understand or empathize with.

I really don't like that things unfolded the way that they did. But there are still ways I can find beauty for ashes, even if it can never balance the scales.

BLAIR HODGES: I really appreciate your candor, Ben. Thanks for sending that message. And we'll talk more directly about divorced men in future episodes, and also about divorce in the gay community, which gets even less attention and less press.

Okay, this next one's not a voice memo. It's a direct message from a listener called Sharolyn. She sent this on Instagram.

“I saw you asking about people who would listen to your divorce episodes. I often don't listen to things about divorce anymore because it's been 13 years for me and I just want to move on. I've been processing it in myself and with my kids ever since.

I did listen to your episode with Maggie Smith, though. My life is complex enough with extended family and friends that I always relate to something. And then your interview with Paul Scheer had me thinking about how I kept my broken marriage a secret from my kids.

For a while, my 10-year-old and my 7-year-old girls had bunk beds, but they always slept together in the full size bed on the bottom. For a year before my divorce, I would go in their room at night after they fell asleep and climb to the top where I would sleep. Then I'd get up before they woke up. I know some nights we even talked and they knew I was there. But weirdly, I brought it up this year at Thanksgiving and the girls had genuinely not remembered. They both looked at each other in amazement.

As we talk now, I know I wasn't always correct about how they'd be affected by things. Divorce was the best thing and they know it. How I tried to manage it at the time didn't always achieve what I wanted, though.”

Well, thanks for sending that message, Sherrilyn.

That's amazing that they didn't remember. I mean, we never can tell what's going to leave an impression and what's not. Memory is a really weird thing and, well speaking of memory, here's something that I would like everybody to remember. If you're listening to this show and something stands out to you in any episode, you can send me a message about it, something that you liked, something that maybe didn't add up, or that you'd add some nuance to.

You can DM me or you can send a voice memo to my email. It's blair@firesidepod.org.

And we have one more voice memo to share right now. This one's from Natalie.

NATALIE: My name is Natalie. I live in Salt Lake City. I'm a photographer and a divorced mom of two boys. On my daily hikes I listen to podcasts, and Family Proclamations with Blair Hodges is one of my absolute favorites. Generally, I enjoy all of his episodes and always learn something new and hear unique and thoughtful perspectives.

The two divorce episodes were of particular interest to me. Blair's interview with Maggie Smith sort of caught me off guard because it was the first episode that was so personally relatable to me. I'm a woman in my mid-40s with two kids and I happen to also grow up in central Ohio, just like the author. I really felt an imbalance in the division of labor with my ex-husband Both during our 13-year marriage and in the 11 years since our divorce, and it was validating and comforting to hear Maggie's thoughts on the subject.

I loved the interview so much that I immediately bought and read You Can Make This Place Beautiful and I've since recommended that book to several divorced and married friends.

I really enjoyed Blair's interview with April White about her book The Divorce Colony as well. This episode was fascinating because I hadn't ever really given a moment's thought to divorce in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

I drive through Sioux Falls, South Dakota on my way to Wisconsin a couple times a year, and I had no clue that it was a divorce colony for women when South Dakota was a new state. This episode made me truly grateful to live in a time where initiating a divorce is relatively simple and for the courage and hard work that women before me put in that led to our current divorce laws.

Heather Quick on Divorce Today – 9:53

BLAIR HODGES: Thanks for that, Natalie. I think a lot of people have reason to be grateful for the ability to get a divorce, as painful as divorce can be. And as we're about to discuss, those rights could come under threat.

Our guest right now is Heather Quick. She's the founder and CEO of the Florida Women's Law Group. It's the only divorce and family law firm that's specifically for women in Northeast Florida. She's got a lot of great resources for people on her website. Heather, welcome to Family Proclamations.

HEATHER QUICK: Thank you so much.

BLAIR HODGES: Why did you decide to specialize in divorce as a lawyer?

HEATHER QUICK: So it wasn't my first thought. I've met many lawyers who have said they knew from the beginning that's what they wanted to practice and really what happened was as I transitioned from criminal prosecution to criminal defense, because that's what I thought would be the natural segue, I did not really enjoy the defense part of the criminal law, and I kept getting clients with family law issues.

So I learned family law. And the more I did it and the more I, you know, grew myself, married, children, I really realized this is something I enjoy, and I could very much make a huge difference in people's lives in a divorce case in helping them.

BLAIR HODGES: You said you enjoyed it. But family law can be difficult. I mean, you're dealing with people in some of the worst things they might go through, and divorce can be really hard. So tell me about the enjoyment part about it. Does it have to do more with, like, a satisfaction of helping or what does that enjoyment look like?

HEATHER QUICK: It is, I think, helping them achieve something I don't think they could have achieved on their own. And that gives me a lot of satisfaction. Particularly as my practice moved towards women only, I saw I could really make a difference and help these women build confidence, self-esteem, and understand the worth they brought to the marriage that they didn't really see themselves and their husband didn't acknowledge, you know, as they were divorcing.

So I thought I could watch the transformation of the client from that first day when I met them to the end, and they were stronger and they felt like they had more to offer and they were ready to be independent on their own. And, yes, that provides me with a lot of satisfaction.

BLAIR HODGES: I think about people who don't recognize the value of unpaid labor, of a lot of the emotional labor women do, a lot of the childcare labor women do that tend to do much more than men, and it’s all undervalued by society.

But it sounds like it's also a lot of women themselves have undervalued it as they're looking at divorce, like, “well, if he earned more money than me,” or whatever, they might not be thinking about what they also contributed.

HEATHER QUICK: Yes. And it's really valuing our time. I think women in general tend to not put as much value on the time it takes to, you know, let's just say something very minor, but like holiday cards. Right? Takes a long time versus your husband's time at work.

And so women tend to take on at least two to three more times of just the stuff it takes to run a household because they are valuing their time as equal to their husband's, to where you can divvy it out and say, okay, this is your list of things to do, and this is mine.

They end up kind of taking it all on. And I think that is common for women to say, hey, I want it done this way, I want it done right. But also I think if you were to really write down all the things it takes to run a household, you just don't ever spend that time to realize how time consuming it is.

BLAIR HODGES: I imagine it can be really satisfying to see women start to value their time and themselves more when they're going through a divorce.

Now let's talk about the past. I invited you here to talk a little bit about a previous interview we had with April White. She's a historian who talked about divorce in the 19th century when there was no such thing as no-fault divorce.

Back then, there had to be some kind of legally recognized reason for women to seek a divorce. And that was really tricky. And Sioux Falls, South Dakota, became this place where people would go because the laws there were friendlier to women. I wanted to hear your perspective on that history. What stood out to you in April's discussion?

HEATHER QUICK: Number one, the lengths they would go to. Right? Because that, to me, indicates, hey, they really wanted out because that was not an easy thing, to travel, and not an easy place to go to back then. So the determination the women had to get their freedom from a relationship that was not working for many reasons stood out.

I have listened to several of the stories within her book, it was fascinating to me. That was great history that a lot of us should listen to for sure.

BLAIR HODGES: Did anything catch you off guard? Did you. Did you see anything new there where you're like, oh, that kind of puts things in a new light?

HEATHER QUICK: Well, just how hard it was, right? Because, I mean, I know things within, say, my lifetime or my mother's, the things I've been told and, hey, the struggle that generation above me had, or maybe even two with my grandmother. But I had never thought all the way back to that time when you just couldn't go get a divorce.

BLAIR HODGES: Sure.

HEATHER QUICK: And, even then, if you did go and get it, it still might not even be recognized when you return to your home state. And there was the one story I think she talked about towards the end of the interview where then the former wife got the whole estate because they never recognized that original divorce, so the new wife was left without anything.

APRIL WHITE: Charles came out to Sioux Falls in the early period of the divorce colony. And like everyone else, he goes out for a divorce. He stays for the period of time he's been asked to. He gets a divorce, he goes back to Massachusetts, he meets a woman, he marries her, he has two children. His father dies. This becomes important. His father dies, and then not that long later, Charles dies at a young age. And suddenly his first wife thinks, “Oh, wait a second, there is quite the estate here. Now, because he has his father's money, I should challenge to be the administrator of his estate, to be his legal heir.”

And she does. She takes it all the way up to the Supreme Court, and they find that South Dakota did not have the necessary jurisdiction and therefore the divorce is invalid. His second wife is not his second wife. His children are not his legitimate heirs, and his first wife, Kate, is heir to the fortune.

Chaos.

HEATHER QUICK: So I'm very thankful the laws have evolved with the times because, you know, I think that was not in the best interest of, certainly of women, but of married couples when things were not going well.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. It wasn't until 1969, as you know, that Ronald Reagan signed the first no-fault divorce law. And this was in California. He was governor at the time. And then no-fault divorce would spread across the country from there. So we're talking, like you said, about our grandparents, our parents, this was happening within their lives.

And so I wanted to hear about the state of things today, because April is a historian, so people can check that episode out and hear about that 19th century story to become familiar with, like you said, the great advances that have happened. But what's the state of the field today? What are you seeing as the general practical obstacles that people face when they're looking at divorce?

HEATHER QUICK: There's still the societal barriers and, you know, what are people going to say? What are they going to think of me for wanting to get a divorce?

And to touch on that, because oftentimes just two people, like, they got married maybe too young, they didn't really know one another, they maybe got pregnant and decided to get married because of that. And so for a lot of reasons that maybe are not this monumental huge affair—cheating, going to jail, right? Things that just happen.

And many people still feel shame, because they feel like they have to give everybody a reason to justify why they aren't staying in that marriage. And that's really hard for a lot of women. And I'm sure for some men, right, with your family, maybe your church, your synagogue, you know, whoever your people are in your social setting, it really still can be very, very difficult.

BLAIR HODGES: Wow. Do you see a lot of shame around it?

HEATHER QUICK: Absolutely. And then culturally, too, right, it just really depends on, you know, what you grew up in, your beliefs. And even though you may be in a situation that could be really, really bad and could be violent, there are still stigmas. And you may not have that kind of relationship with your family anymore because they may just not, especially for women, accept you and they may say, “sorry,” you know, “you have to stay married.”

BLAIR HODGES: Hmm. It sounds tricky to be in a lawyer's position because a lot of these people probably also just need some therapy as they're processing things. Do you ever kind of feel like you have to do little mini bits of therapy here, just like talking your clients through the process?

HEATHER QUICK: Absolutely. And, you know, not as a licensed therapist, but sometimes just talking common sense. And I don't mean that to disparage anybody. You're overwhelmed with the emotion of what's going on.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, I think that's what I mean. Therapeutically, it's like you're connecting emotionally with them.

HEATHER QUICK: Well they call attorneys counselors also, right? Because yes, we're counseling them on the law, but also maybe the best behaviors, the best things to do that are going to benefit you legally. So yes, there's a lot of that, a lot of reassurance, there's a lot of empathy required, I think, if you're a really good attorney because you hear, you see—it’s not sympathy. We're not feeling sorry for you, but we get it and we're willing to do what it takes to try to get you the end result you're looking for.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. I like the distinction between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy just sort of like feeling sorry for somebody, almost kind of looking down on them, whereas empathy is just recognizing what they must be going through and then working with them proactively to help them proceed.

HEATHER QUICK: Absolutely.

BLAIR HODGES: Well, the legal landscape right now is a little uncertain. There is a small movement against no-fault divorce. For example, in Oklahoma, there was a bill introduced in January of 2024 to ban Oklahoma's version of no-fault divorce. The Texas Republican Party added a call to end no-fault divorce in its 2022 platform.

And then we have federal lawmakers like House Speaker Mike Johnson has spoken out against no-fault divorce. And now Vice President elect JD Vance has also criticized no-fault divorce as a real cancer on the nation, basically saying it's destructive to families and therefore to society.

Does that worry you at all? Does this kind of rising movement against no-fault divorce make you feel nervous?

HEATHER QUICK: I wouldn't use the word nervous, but I do have concern because I think that through their narrow lens, right, they are looking at marriage and family as this institution to be protected based on their beliefs and where they've come from. However, very often when a divorce happens, it can be very amicable and it can be oftentimes the best thing that could happen for that family and their children.

And if you now create a situation where we've got to prove fault, now you're just saying we've got to go call names and we've got to go point fingers and we've got to make one of us the villain.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. Someone has to be the big loser.

HEATHER QUICK: Somebody has to be. And then that is going to affect your ability to co-parent down the line. Because I think the basis of all this worry is because you have children, right? They probably don't care if you divorce and you don't have children. It seems to be that that's their concern.

BLAIR HODGES: For them.

HEATHER QUICK: Yeah, for them in this like, “oh,” you know, “the destruction of our families.” But I just think they aren't seeing the big picture. And very intelligent adults who are married, have children, may not be able to make that marriage work. But if they can be amicable in part, they can sometimes be great co-parents, great friends, even where their children no longer have to live in that adversarial environment when they were all together.

So I think they're missing out on that fact in particular, because if it's no-fault, we've got to go prove something. And what, now we gotta have private eyes like following you all around to prove your affair? We gotta put cameras in the home to prove that you're an abuser or you are about substance abuse?

BLAIR HODGES: I've also seen some researchers of divorce talk about how when there is abuse and when there are those other issues that can be a dangerous situation if that becomes the crux of a divorce.

HEATHER QUICK: Right, absolutely. Because that's the most dangerous time often for women in an abusive relationship is when they do leave.

BLAIR HODGES: There are some economists, for example, that studied the effects of no-fault divorce laws on states that passed it kind of from the beginning. And they saw a 30% decrease in reported intimate partner violence. They saw a 10% drop in women being murdered by their partners. They saw a 16% decrease in female suicides. All of these things happened because they didn't have to fight in the same way if your partner's abusing, and you have to make that the core issue, that that could actually be more dangerous for you.

So I also see eliminating no-fault divorce as a threat to women's health as well.

HEATHER QUICK: Yes, which many people don't really understand as an issue. And how that becomes the most dangerous time because those who are uninformed are like, “well, you're gone, you left.” No, no, no, it's so intertwined and it becomes a very, very dangerous time. And now your abuser would think, well, when will you really have the ability because you've been in such a violent situation where you have been abused. You probably don't have the strength to think, now I've got to prove this. How am I going to prove it? And also he knows I've got to prove it, so he has even more incentive to make sure that I don't.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah.

HEATHER QUICK: And that does not surprise me at all. Those statistics that changed with the change in the law. So it definitely is an issue that does affect women more often than men and in a negative way. This idea of making it, you know, we have to prove fault.

BLAIR HODGES: That's what I wanted to ask you about next is, you're the founder and CEO of the only divorce and family law firm that's specifically for women in Northeast Florida. It's called the Florida Women's Law Group.

As you said, you feel like women often disproportionately are affected or perhaps at greater risk, but some men will push back on that and say, actually the courts are stacked against men, especially when it comes to children and stuff.

HEATHER QUICK: So I really saw an opportunity to help women when I saw similar patterns in representing women throughout the divorce process and they were the same. And I thought, okay, if I can build a firm and we know the patterns they go through, they know we know their feelings and how they're going to feel at different intersections, we can build a better firm because now we are serving specifically women.

BLAIR HODGES: I want to hear you talk about why you chose to open that firm for women and what the benefit of that is for people who would criticize it and say, well, that that actually sounds unfair.

HEATHER QUICK: We know their feelings and how they're going to feel at different intersections. We can go to better because now we are serving specific needs. And then we also can really, for myself, have a point of view and not waffle. Because other divorce attorneys, which are the majority of them, are men only firms. There aren't really any women only firms that I have found. And then they waffle. “Well, we agree on, you know, alimony for women when we represent the man, but when we represent the women,” or, you know, vice versa. Like we'll just take our point of view depending on who the client is.

So really you don't have a point of view, you're just neutral, versus no, we have a point of view about what we feel like women deserve and how they really are discounted so often in the family law arena even now.

BLAIR HODGES: What do you want women to think about who might be thinking about divorce or thinking about finding an attorney? What are your recommendations?

HEATHER QUICK: I recommend that certainly they research them before going in. Now, I'm not going to recommend you go see 10 different attorneys, but you want to see maybe what their resources are on their website are because generally everybody has one that resonates with you.

And if you do go interview a few, find out: Are they asking you questions or are they talking more about themselves? Are they assuming what you want or are they asking you a lot of questions to try to help you figure out what you want.

And that's a big difference. Very often the lawyers talk a lot. I talk to my attorneys all the time, I ask them: Are you listening? We need to listen to our clients because they don't all want what you think they want, and we should not put what we want in front of what their want is.

And they don't understand the law. Generally in divorce, it's often the first time a person has hired an attorney, so they don't even know what to expect, and that can be intimidating. So they just listen and they are like, okay, I'll go with this attorney. And they sometimes just like, with a doctor medical situation, you're like, “okay, well, they are the expert, so I'm just going to listen to them rather than have a lot of questions.”

BLAIR HODGES: I like that distinction, because when you're talking to a medical provider, they're going to need to really listen to your symptoms and also bring their expertise to the table. When you're talking to a lawyer, it's pretty similar, except that, you know, in some cases with a medical issue, it's pretty clear cut.

HEATHER QUICK: Questions are really important.

BLAIR HODGES: Like, there's certain cancers that need a particular kind of treatment or whatever. But with a divorce, a person might not want a particular thing in a divorce. And if a lawyer is assuming that they want particular things and just proceeding without asking, yeah, I can see how that could really be a really ineffective way to deal with divorce.

HEATHER QUICK: Right? Yes. Because otherwise, then you end up with a result and you're like, well, this isn't what I wanted. And you spent all this time and money, and it's not where you really wanted to be.

BLAIR HODGES: Find an attorney who is listening first.

HEATHER QUICK: You also need to find an attorney who's willing to tell it to you straight. As far as, “this is the law, this is what we're looking at.” Right? Nobody wants to hear, say, bad news. We all have our idea of what it would be, but you need to have somebody who's like, “Alright, I got to tell you, you don't want to do this, but these are the things you need to do in order to achieve your goal.”

BLAIR HODGES: That's Heather Brooke Quick. She's founder and CEO of the Florida Women's Law Group. She's also a current member of the Florida Bar association, the Jacksonville Bar association, and the Jacksonville Women Lawyers association. Her website is floridawomenslawgroup.com

Anything else you want to share with us, Heather, before we go?

HEATHER QUICK: Well, just that if anyone is thinking about divorce or has questions, we have so many resources on our website, and we also have a podcast, Women Winning Divorce, that really is created to give you information. So please listen. I interview a lot of lawyers, therapists, financial experts to really give you an understanding, because education is power and you really should learn as much as you can about it.

BLAIR HODGES: Terrific. I'll make sure to add links to the show notes. It sounds like a great resource and people definitely need it because, I mean, when I got married, I have to tell you, I didn't read the fine print. So I don't know, I'm still I've been married for like 18 years and I'm still not sure what I signed up for legally in a lot of ways. [laughter]

HEATHER QUICK: Exactly. Well, that's the majority of us. I mean, come on. That's true.

BLAIR HODGES: Well, thanks for joining us, Heather. This has been great.

HEATHER QUICK: Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure.

Outro – 31:01

BLAIR HODGES: Thanks for listening to another mini episode. And if you haven't listened to those earlier episodes on divorce, you can check out April White's episode and Maggie Smith's episode.

I'll see you in the new year when Relationscapes makes its debut. We'll be joined by Guinevere Turner, author of a memoir called When the World Didn't End. She tells the story of growing up in a sort-of hippie doomsday cult, how she left that cult, and then found life to be even more difficult in some ways on the outside.