How to Support Trans Youth (with Ben V. Greene)

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Introduction – 0:00

 

BLAIR HODGES: This is Relationscapes, the podcast where we travel the long and winding road of human identity and connection. I'm journalist Blair Hodges in Salt Lake City, and our guide in this episode is trans author and advocate Ben V. Greene.

BEN GREENE: People always say, “I'm grieving my child. I'm grieving the person I lost.” And I had a really hard time hearing that when I was a kid. I had been the same person this whole time. I was just sharing something true about myself with the people I loved. And they told me it felt like I killed someone.

And yes, there are things that are going to change, but this whole story is not about taking down pictures from your walls. It's about replacing those pictures with new ones in which everyone feels seen.

BLAIR HODGES: Our understanding of gender identity seems to be expanding faster than ever, much to the relief of many trans people who've otherwise had to hide who they were. For others, these changes can feel disorienting, even for people who want to support and embrace change. When a young person comes out as trans, many parents and caregivers describe feeling grief as if they've lost someone. Some express feeling afraid for their child, especially because of rising anti-trans rhetoric and policies. Ben Greene offers a reframe. This moment doesn't have to be about grief. It can be about clarity, about truly seeing a young person. And instead of surrendering to fear, we can meet this moment, moment with courage, speaking up, advocating, and making room for trans youth to flourish.

Ben Greene wrote the book that I recommend first to anybody who wants to learn more about how to support trans lives. The book is called My Child is Trans, Now What? A Joy-Centered Approach to Support. Ben Greene joins us, to talk about how to transition away from uncertainty and fear toward connection and love and advocacy, right now.

 

Best and Worst Questions – 02:15

 

BLAIR HODGES: Ben Greene, welcome to Relationscapes.

BEN GREENE: Hey, thanks so much for having me. Really excited to be here.

BLAIR HODGES: First question—what questions are you kind of tired of hearing people ask you? Are there any questions where you're like, I get this so often, what is happening?

BEN GREENE: You know, I'm tired of just getting asked repetitive questions. I think because I do this day in, day out—today I've got events from around 9 a.m. until 11 p.m.—and so questions like, “Oh, why does somebody use they/them pronouns?”

I love that you're asking. I love you for asking. Thank you. And oh my gosh, I can literally walk away from my body while I answer that question. And people ask me weird or confusing or personal things. I like when people ask questions in a strange and interesting new way.

BLAIR HODGES: Okay. Is there a question you wish more people would be asking right now? Because sometimes you might get some questions that you’re just kind of used to answering. What’s a rare question that you wish more people would bring to you?

BEN GREENE: Yeah, I am perpetually wishing that more people would ask, “What can I do?” You know, getting involved in allyship and advocacy. Or that people were asking more about the good stuff about being trans. They expect me to be suffering and struggling and constantly crying. And I’m like a dog—I’m just so happy to be anywhere, all the time.

BLAIR HODGES: Okay, well hey, let’s talk about the first time that you came out publicly then, as trans. This is when you’re 15 years old. You write about this in the book, and you were giving a presentation in health class. Take us to that moment and how you talked about what it meant to be trans to a room of kids who probably didn’t really know anything about it.

BEN GREENE: So my junior year health class, we had this project where every student picked a topic that had some kind of connection to health. It could be drug use, it could be exercise—anything. And you made a 15-minute presentation about it. I had already started to come out to a couple of my friends and said, “I’m going to do a presentation on what it means to be transgender,” because I knew nobody knew anything about what was going on here.

So I made this whole presentation, and the first slide had my birth name on it. It said, “Okay, I’m so-and-so, and I’m giving this presentation.” And the last slide of the presentation, I was going to have the title slide again and say, “I know all this because actually my name is Ben, and I’m transgender.”

And when I tell you, I deleted and re-added that slide to my presentation like 900 times in the two hours before my presentation. Delete, control-Z. Delete, control-Z. I was freaking out about it. And then I did it. And word spread, and people started reaching out to me—“Oh my God, I heard what you did, that’s so crazy.” And it was mostly really positive. Most of the guys at the school wanted nothing to do with me, but most of the girls and other trans and queer students were really like, “Wow, this was just so cool.”

 

Finding a Comfortable Seat – 04:54

 

BLAIR HODGES: You used this chair analogy, right, in the presentation to help people understand. That’s really helpful. Tell us about the chair analogy.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, absolutely. So the really short version of the chair analogy—which, if you want the longer version, you can either check out my book or I have a TED Talk called “Where Are You Sitting?”—basically says your gender identity is your internal sense, and your biological sex is about your body. We’re all born sitting in one of two types of chairs: a firm, tall stool and a soft, squishy armchair.

Some people don’t notice the chair they’re sitting in. After you’ve been sitting for long enough, it just feels comfortable. They’re cisgender—they stay in the chair they’re sitting in forever. Some people are really uncomfortable. For whatever reason, they have gender dysphoria, so they move chairs. They identify as transgender. They say, “The chair that I was born into was not comfortable, and I’d like to sit somewhere else.”

As it turns out, there’s a whole Ikea. People want to sit in a rolly chair or a stool or all different kinds of chairs that fall under the umbrella of nonbinary, which just means not exactly an armchair or a stool. And there’s no right or wrong way for someone to sit in their chair. All that matters is that you feel comfortable where you’re sitting.

So I used that analogy from the very beginning of my transition. I still give that in all my presentations. I lean on that analogy, and I find that most of us can relate to sitting down—it’s one of my personal favorite hobbies.

BLAIR HODGES: I like that it gives you the opportunity to talk about the difference between gender identity and gender expression as well.

BEN GREENE: Yes, absolutely. You know, our identity is just this fundamental comfort, and it can mean anything to you that you want it to mean. Whereas gender expression is, here’s how I’m dressing, here’s how I’m wearing my hair. And gender expression categories are highly cultural—and I think a lot of them are very funny.

I remember when I came out, I was like, okay, Mom, I have to get rid of all these girly shower products. No more lavender eucalyptus—like the whole beautiful Amazon rainforest sitting in my shower. I need the “night-in-one axe wet steelworker guy.” So that’s my deodorant right now—it’s called Bear Claw.

I can’t imagine a real bear claw smells good, but that’s the man scent, I guess. Yes. Out of my grocery store.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. That’s important to keep in mind because we make snap judgments about people based on their appearance that aren’t always right. And I think, for me, it’s made me less inclined to gender people like that. I’ve tried to just gender people less—like, “Hello, sir,” “Hello, ma’am,” or things like that. And I’ve found over time that’s become less of a reflex for me.

BEN GREENE: Absolutely. And right, it’s situational. If I get in an Uber and I’ve got an elderly Black woman driving the car, I’m going to call her “ma’am.” I live in Missouri—that’s just the way that we show respect. But if I’m talking to my barista, I am not going to assume my Starbucks barista’s pronouns. You gotta, you know, learn how to walk the walk.

 

Experiencing Physical and Social Dysphoria – 07:36

 

BLAIR HODGES: Okay, so talk about how you first started experiencing gender dysphoria—how you came to understand yourself as trans. I like how the book emphasizes social and physical dysphoria.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. So truthfully, I’ll never exactly know when it started, because I didn’t have access to the language for most of my childhood. I did not identify as a boy. I did not identify as masculine. I identified as weird. I knew that I was not good at being a girl. I thought it was because I wasn’t good at being a person.

And I just accepted that I was weird. I went to a princess dress-up party—not dressed up as a prince, but dressed up as Stitch, the space alien with six arms and laser guns. And that was my gender.

BLAIR HODGES: Stitch rules.

BEN GREENE: Uh huh. Yeah, I loved Stitch. I wore that costume for like eight years in a row. So I knew I was weird. And then puberty started to set in, and then I really knew something was wrong. Theoretically, I knew that I was miserable. And I tried to talk to adults about it—to just say, hey, this doesn’t feel right, this doesn’t really feel like it’s supposed to be happening.

But the way that the adults around me talked about puberty was, “God, everybody hates puberty. Puberty is the worst,” right? They called middle school “puberty jail,” which is hilarious, and also meant that I assumed all of my peers were depressed and anxious and suicidal and just wanted to do anything to stop puberty—because that was how we talked about it.

I didn’t know they were excited about the changes they were experiencing, even if they were bittersweet. And so I had this pain—still didn’t have the words for it. I realized recently I used to say that the onset of puberty, that physical dysphoria, that’s when I knew something was wrong. But my parents recently sold their house, and I was going through all the old papers to help them get ready to move.

And I had a letter I had written to myself in third grade to be given to myself at my high school graduation. The opening paragraph said, “Let’s get one thing straight. You will never like pink. You will never wear a dress. You will never be a girl.”

And it breaks my heart to think about not just that I was having those feelings so young and didn’t know how to talk about it, but that I showed that letter to so many adults. That had to be shown to my parents before I handed it to my teacher, who gave it to my health teacher, who gave it to my middle school health teacher, who gave it to my homeroom teacher. All these adults who—had they had the language—could have stepped in and said, “Hey, seems like you might be struggling. Do you know there could be another way if you’re having a hard time?”

And I don’t fault them for that. They had no idea either. But, you know, I’ll never know for sure when I started to feel that way. But as my body started to change more, as I started to learn the words “dysphoria” and “transgender” and “euphoria,” I started to feel very closely aligned. Right? The words unlocked that closet door. They finally gave me the permission to start describing my experiences. The words did not make me transgender—I was just more scared and alone. They gave me permission to be transgender.

BLAIR HODGES: So what I’m hearing is—correct me if I’m wrong—that your social dysphoria was with you for a long time, and that maybe more physical dysphoria related to your body really started hitting you more around puberty then. But the social dysphoria is something that I think is often overlooked. It’s just the pain of not being seen by other people. You say it’s the sort of feeling alien, feeling different, feeling out of place.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, absolutely. And social dysphoria is made a lot worse by things like misgendering, people using the wrong name, or people being unkind or hateful—or just hearing people talk about anti-trans legislation. Right? All these things contribute to social dysphoria. And I like to differentiate them, for me, in that if I’m on a desert island, I’m probably not having social dysphoria because I see myself as I am. But I’m still having physical dysphoria, because I’m still in this body.

Right. I’d still be trans outside of a society. It would look different, it would probably hurt less, but I would still be trans.

 

Leading With Trans Perspectives – 11:26

 

BLAIR HODGES: And we’ll talk a little bit later on about some of the things trans folks do with both of these types of dysphoria.

But right now, I also want to point out that your book doesn’t start off by trying to prove the existence of trans people. It’s not citing all the studies or making an argument that people should believe trans people. You start from the beginning with an assumption of the existence of trans people. Talk about that decision to dive in that way.

BEN GREENE: You know, I wrote this book—I had been working on it for about six years. It’s been a long time coming. And I wrote it because I was really frustrated at the number of books that did not take trans people at their word, that did not take trans perspectives into account. Most books out there for parents of trans kids are written by cisgender people.

Now, I think I know plenty of really tremendous cisgender allies who are humble, who have the ability to be corrected. A lot of them are wonderful. And there are a lot of people who don’t have people giving them that feedback, writing these books. So a lot of these books are really grounded in doubt, in grief, in fear. And that’s kind of the whole story that a lot of books out there tell. Not all—and I’m not going to name any names, because that’s not helpful for anybody.

BLAIR HODGES: Do it! 

BEN GREENE: I don’t think they're being malicious.

BLAIR HODGES: I want the clicks. Let’s get names [laughs]—

BEN GREENE: I don’t think anybody’s being malicious, but I think parents then thought that was the only way they could feel like, “Well, I’m not sure.” Right?

My parents—I found out recently—they called up one of their friends who did LGBT youth counseling. He’s a cisgender gay man. And they called him up and said, “Hey, our kid is trans. What should we do?” And he said, “It’s really important to love your kid no matter what, and know that this will pass. This is a phase.”

BLAIR HODGES: Oh!

BEN GREENE: And he was a well-established mental health advocate for LGBTQ youth—and was like, “Don’t worry, it’s going to go away.” And that framework is something a lot of people have taken. And most of the books out there aren’t explicitly saying, “Don’t worry, your kid’s not really trans.” But they do spend a lot of time being like, “Well, your kid doesn’t know what they’re doing. Let’s talk to the cisgender people. Let’s talk to the real experts on trans experiences—not trans people.”

BLAIR HODGES: And I think it’s really important to point out there are two levels happening in that kind of response. The one level is kind of dismissing the kid’s own perspective and ideas, right? Not taking a kid seriously—thinking about it as a phase.

But secondly, I do think underneath that is a fear of trans people, a negativity about trans people—that being trans, or having gender dysphoria, or even gender exploration itself is a bad thing. And “Don’t worry” is actually like “Don’t worry, because you should be worried.”

BEN GREENE: Yeah. You know, my hot take here is that everybody loves to say, “I support my kid because they’re born this way.” “Born this way” is hammered into everyone. I mean, it’s an amazing Lady Gaga song. And we say that—we support our kids because they’re born this way. The underlying assumption there is, “I know that if you could do anything else, you would. I know you wouldn’t choose this. Even though this is a terrible path, because this is the only one you could do, I will support you.”

And while yes, I do think I was born this way, I do think that I am transgender and nothing can change that about me, I don’t think the reason to support me is because I’m in an immutable worst-case scenario. I love being trans. And a lot of parents do have a lot of fear—“I don’t want my kid to have a bad life.”

And sometimes that might lead them to be hesitant or even outright rejecting, because they’re just so worried for the life their kid might have. So centering joy is a big focus of my book—just saying, hey, it’s not a bad life. It’s not a bad thing to be trans.

 

Is Being Joy-Centered Like Toxic Positivity? – 15:07

 

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, this is exactly where I wanted to go with this. The subtitle of your book, A Joy-Centered Approach to Support—I love it. You talk about gender euphoria, about how good it feels to feel seen, how good it feels to accept, to become more accepting of your body, or to find ways to be comfortable with yourself.

And the question that comes to mind then is, what about toxic positivity? You know, I could see some people being tempted to jump right to that whenever heartache comes up or whenever people deal with real struggles, to be like, “Well, you know what? We just need a joy-centered approach.” Let’s skip over that. And I don’t see you doing that, but I’d like to hear you unpack how that works.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, absolutely. You know, for me, the idea of centering joy means recognizing that we are building something, and that’s going to have challenges. But when the center of our approach is fear—right—good things and bad things are going to happen either way. I live in Missouri. I don’t have any sand left in which to bury my head. I know bad things happen. So we know good and bad are going to happen.

When we have a fear-centered approach, which is what a lot of people have, they are constantly motivated by: I’m worried for my kid. I need to join PFLAG because I’m afraid. I need to go testify because I’m angry. I need to move. I am constantly worried. And that makes it really hard for us to let our kids be joyful, let our kids be kids. Right? Fear can only carry us so far. It’s not a sustaining emotion. You can’t build a home in fear.

When I center joy, what I mean is I’m always thinking about not just reacting—not saying, what are the things I’m afraid of, who are the people I don’t want in office, what are the bills that are going to hurt me—but what am I moving toward? What am I fighting for? What am I trying to build with my child?

BLAIR HODGES: And maybe what you have—what do I have right now?

BEN GREENE: Exactly. Yeah. People always say, “I’m grieving my child, I’m grieving the person I lost.” And I had a really hard time hearing that when I was a kid because I felt like I had been the same person this whole time. I was just sharing something true about myself with the people I loved. And they told me it felt like I killed someone. I didn’t understand that.

And yes, there are things that are going to change. There are things that you might lose. But a joy-centered approach means saying this whole story is not about taking down pictures from your walls and leaving a house full of sun-faded rectangles. This whole journey is about replacing those pictures with new ones in which everyone feels seen—balancing out and choosing to make joy the focal point. Recognizing there are going to be challenges, but joy is the way forward.

It’s the way I say, “What are the bills I would like to fight for? What do I want to see? What do I dream of for my kid?” And that, as a sustaining emotion, will take us so much further than fear or anger ever could.

BLAIR HODGES: Okay, here’s a footnote question super quick. Have you thought about leaving Missouri? Why stay?

BEN GREENE: Yeah, I’ve thought about that all the time. You know, we love to say, “Put your oxygen mask on first before helping others.” But right now, the bills in Missouri focus on trans youth. I’m sitting on a plane—I can’t get my oxygen mask on. Michael Phelps is sitting next to me. That man’s aquatic. He can hold his breath for like ten minutes. He can help me put my oxygen mask on and nothing bad will happen to him.

Right now in Missouri, I can hold my breath and nothing bad will happen to me. I don’t feel like I’m here hurting myself for the sake of other people. And I would be okay with that too, by the way. But I’m willing to take these risks to be here fighting while these kids are struggling, while the most vulnerable members of our community are suffering.

So I have this privilege and these resources and a talent at getting through to legislators that I want to use for as long as I can hold my breath. That might change. But for right now, Missouri’s a good state full of good people that’s just gerrymandered into oblivion. But there are trans kids here who shouldn’t have to leave their friends and their schools and their hobbies and their very reasonable housing prices just because some stupid cattle rancher—and I’m not exaggerating, many of our legislators are cattle ranchers—when they’re not legislating, some stupid cattle rancher doesn’t get what it means to be nonbinary. They shouldn’t get to chase me out. I don’t want to let them win.

BLAIR HODGES: I like this because you’re suggesting we check our oxygen levels and pay attention to those. And I like that approach because you’re not passing judgment over people who don’t do the same that you do. You’re seeing that there are going to be different needs, different approaches, and—

BEN GREENE: Yeah, that’s okay. Yeah, you gotta do what you gotta do to keep yourself safe.

 

Above All, Listen – 19:25

 

BLAIR HODGES: Okay. So the most important thing in the book—and you start off with this, and you say if you could get one point through to people, this is what you want—is to listen. I think that actually runs against most people’s instincts. Most people might not think that when I say that; they might be like, “Oh, wait, we all think listening’s important.”

Well, here’s the thing. We’re talking about trans kids especially, right? And I think when it comes to kids, people often think the kids are just too ignorant or inexperienced to have a say or to have a reasonable or meaningful opinion about this. And you say actually the first step is to start listening to these kids.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, your kid is the leading expert on themselves and their needs. My goal—the goal of gender-affirming healthcare and physicians and all these resources—is to provide a toolbox, not a blueprint. Only your kid can tell you what they want to do with the tools available to them. So the best we can do is have conversations, let them know they're allowed to give feedback, allowed to make requests, allowed to change their mind, and question things, and be uncertain, and be curious and explorative.

People have this feeling that a kid can’t possibly know. Kids know who they are. There is a tremendous amount of data proving that. But when I lean too hard into the data, I’m saying, “Don’t worry, I know you can trust kids because an adult said it. Trust the adult.” At some point, we have to change our fundamental worldview a little bit and say, “I can trust this kid to tell me what they need.”

If I teach them what it means to advocate, I teach them, “Hey, this is a serious decision. Let’s talk about how we make serious decisions.” It doesn’t mean that you don’t parent them anymore, but it does mean that they know their needs better than anybody else. We just have to help teach them how to talk about it.

BLAIR HODGES: And you talk about how important it is to listen with empathy and to be flexible. Because, as you point out, kids are exploring who they are at this point, and as a parent or a caregiver or a friend, we can think of ourselves as being with them on that journey rather than controlling that journey. And as a parent or as someone who's really responsible for a kid, that maybe can be one of the hardest things about it: relinquishing that sense of needing to control and protect and mold and shape this young child.

BEN GREENE: Yes, definitely. There’s a lot of fear that parents have of, “But I don’t want it to be hard for them. I want to protect them. And if they change their pronouns today, it’s going to be harder. If my trans daughter doesn’t want to grow her hair out, it’s going to be harder.” At some point, we have to recognize that even though our options are to change my kid or change the world—and one of them feels a lot easier—only one of them is going to make your kid feel loved.

No matter how much love you have in your heart, trying to change your kid so the world is less hard on them is only going to make the world harder on them. We’ve got to fight to change the world instead.

BLAIR HODGES: That’s Ben Greene, and we’re talking about his book My Child is Trans, Now What? A Joy-Centered Approach to Support. Ben’s also a guest lecturer on diversity, equity, and inclusion at Cornell and serves on the advisory board of Tufts University’s master’s degree in diversity, equity, and inclusion. He speaks all over the place, including the Missouri State Capitol, and has given presentations to 115 PFLAG chapters for free throughout the country. Does a ton of activism and outreach. You can follow him at bgtranstalks.com. He also has a Substack, "Good Queer News," a new Substack that just came out.

 

Coming Out as a Process, Not Event – 22:44

 

BLAIR HODGES: Ben, let’s talk about—speaking of coming out, let’s talk about coming out. You discovered that coming out isn’t something that just happens once. As a cisgender person, I didn’t really ever have to come out in this regard in any real, serious type of way. I imagine it as like, okay, a person announces that they’re trans or that they’re gay, or whatever they’re coming out as, and then the world just sort of knows.

You point out that it’s important to keep in mind that coming out is an ever-ongoing process, and there are different ways that coming out works and stuff like that. So talk about coming out as a process.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it is ever-evolving. And there are a lot of people who feel very entitled to know about the histories and identities of trans people. I have a lot of people who have found out that I’m trans and feel almost betrayed that I didn’t tell them right away, which is really interesting. I’ve got a couple of friends who are much less public about their identities than I am. It’s very hard for me to talk about myself without talking about being trans, because it’s my job and it’s my book’s interest, and it’s a big part of me. That’s okay.

But I’ve got other friends who are just law students or medical students and are just like, “Yeah, that’s my medical history. You don’t need to know what surgeries just because we’re hanging out right now.”

But it’s constant. I went on a business trip recently, so I got in an Uber, and the Uber driver said, “Okay, we’re going to the airport. What are you traveling for?” And I have to decide: Can I say, “I’m going to give a presentation on trans inclusion for mental health workers in Vermont”? Then I get to the conference or I get to the hotel, I’m editing my slides in the lobby. Somebody sits down at my table: “Oh, what are you working on?” Gotta decide again: Can I say, “I’m editing my slides to talk about trans inclusion”?

Then I get up on a stage in front of 150 people and have to say, “Hey everybody, I’m transgender. You didn’t know that about me?” Then I go out to dinner with one of the people who hosted me for the event, their partner, and a couple of friends who are in town, and I say, “Hey, you know, I’m transgender.” That comes up while we’re hanging out, because that’s the work I do.

We’re all talking about our jobs and why I’m in town. So I am constantly coming out. And when I’m home in St. Louis, my wife will bring over new friends from school, and we’ll have to do a little bit of a vibe check: “Okay, does it seem like they’d be okay with knowing what my work is, or should I tell them my fake job?” And I have a whole fake persona that I draw on when I don’t feel safe or comfortable talking about my actual story.

BLAIR HODGES: So it’s coming out as a youngster—we talked about your health class—but now it’s just something you continue to face. And a lot of trans folks experience the same. You mentioned you have this fake story, too. I would imagine that can happen in circumstances where you don’t feel as safe or where maybe you don’t have the emotional resources—you just don’t want to go into it at any time.

There can be different reasons, but there is a fear of coming out that people face, whether they’re coming out for the first time to people or whether they’re coming out after they’ve known people. Talk about the fear many people experience.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. The center of that fear is that when we are trying to figure out who we can and can’t come out to, for so many people, we can’t afford to guess wrong. And so we wait. That’s why I waited eight months to come out to my parents—not because they were clearly antagonistic, but because they hadn’t found a way to indicate to me, or I hadn’t known it was important for them to indicate to me, that they would be supportive.

Every person I meet, I am collecting so much data. What pins do they have on their backpack? What jokes do they laugh at? What do they mention they did over the weekend? Do they have any thoughts on the Pride Parade coming up?

BLAIR HODGES: Didn’t your parents, like, say stuff about Caitlyn Jenner or something? Because you didn’t realize it was for political reasons, and you were like, "oh..."

BEN GREENE: Yes, which as it turns out, she’s just very annoying, and I don’t like her either. [laughter] But I thought she was the only trans person I had seen them react to. So I assumed they were unsupportive, and I couldn’t afford to guess wrong. So there is this constant fear and monitoring and data collection of: Are you going to be okay? Do I have enough evidence that I think this is a safe thing to share with you?

 

If Someone Was Reluctant to Tell You – 26:48

 

BLAIR HODGES: I think some parents might feel—or some parents, loved ones, friends might feel—betrayed or feel like, “Oh, how come you didn’t tell me?” They might take it personally, like, “Well, I’m a trustworthy person. Why didn’t they feel that I was ready to hear this?” What do you say to folks like that, who have that kind of trepidation?

BEN GREENE: Yeah, the first thing I do is recognize that we gotta have some humility. You might not have been told because you made a mistake, you made an offensive joke, or you laughed about Caitlyn Jenner, or your loved one had no idea that you were going to be supportive, or they had their own stuff going on.

For a lot of my early days, I just did not know for sure, and I was really nervous that I was going to have to come out and then it would lock me in. So it’s not all about you. Don’t take it all personally, and recognize that we’re humans, which means we are going to make mistakes.

If you can look back and say, “Okay, I know it was this thing,” or you can ask your loved one if that’s part of your relationship: “Hey, seems like you waited kind of a while to tell me. Is there something that I did, or especially something I continue to do that might not give off the inclusive signal that I think it is? Because I want to be better.”

And we might have these regrets, and regret is a great emotion because it lets us know we have grown. You would not regret it if you were still the same person who did that thing.

BLAIR HODGES: I like that you said you didn’t want to feel locked in either. I think about maybe some supportive parents who might go way supportive in ways that the kids are like, “Well, hold on, hold on. I’m still trying to figure this out.” So it seems like you kind of have to thread the needle of feeling out what the person needs to feel supported, because you also don’t want them to feel locked in or trapped into something. If they, if you’re so happy and express such love for them for being trans, maybe they thought they were a trans girl, but they come to think of themselves more as non-binary, but then they feel weird talking to you about that because you’re their trans daughter. That was so important to you. So it just seems like you really have to be in tune with the kid and let them lead.

BEN GREENE: Exactly. Let your kid lead the way. Now, that doesn’t mean saying to them, “Oh, I support you so much. It’s okay if you change your mind,” because that might send a message of, “I’m counting phase.” But having those moments of celebration where we say, “I’m going to get you a gender re-reveal cake,” or “I’m going to get you a new skincare kit,” we’re going to go get our nails done, or, like, my dad invited me to have my first beer with the guys—that’s so affirming.

And it’s okay to make space for it to change, to have those conversations, but celebrating, leaving room for curiosity and questioning. We do have to kind of toe the line and trust our kids to lead the way.

 

How to Ask Good Questions – 29:24

 

BLAIR HODGES: I like your suggestion to sometimes ask before asking particular things, because, as you mentioned, a lot of trans people have to become experts on everything to the people that are around them. And there’s a lot of questions and there’s pressure to answer them. You say, hey, sometimes somebody just might not be up to talking about it. And it’s okay to check in and be like, “Hey, is it all right if I ask you about this?” Or, you know, before you just dive right in.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. People really, from the second I came out at 15, were like, “Okay, great. This guy’s the expert.” I was writing school policy, I was teaching our health classes, I was answering constant questions around: What’s this identity? Why would somebody use this label?

And I wasn’t an expert by default. RuPaul did not come down my chimney and say, “Here's the Encyclopedia of Gay. Slay Queen.” RuPaul has more important things to do. I was not an expert at the time, but I was forced to be that way because everybody kept asking. So I grew up, I became really patient, really well-spoken. Now I’m an expert by trade. Not everybody wants to study transgender inclusion just to come out as trans and go to their job or hang out with their friends or their families.

So giving that little bit of preface or answer, like, really personal questions. Strangers ask me about my genitals. Usually that’s socially frowned upon, but it’s acceptable when somebody is trans. So just saying, “Hey, do you mind if I ask you a question about, you know, your transition, about your coming out process, about language and terminology?”

Give a little preface that lets somebody know they can say, “I’m not the right person for that. I came out two minutes ago, and I’m eight. I don’t know what’s going on.” Or, “I’m tired. Let’s talk about that tomorrow.”

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah.

BEN GREENE: Giving people the space to say no is a great way of establishing ourselves as allies who are receptive to feedback and just avoid some of those uncomfortable situations.

BLAIR HODGES: I also like the advice to ask yourself why you’re asking before you go start a conversation. Like, why do I want to know this? Is this important information? Is this because I want to help this person or want to understand more? Or is it just curiosity and, like, what am I trying to do when I ask questions?

BEN GREENE: Yeah. And listen, curiosity is not a bad thing. The fact that you are wondering and wanting to learn more is pretty much always good. But sometimes you have to say, “I’m not going to be able to get an answer to that question.” Right? Sometimes I see a couple in public that is super weird PDA. I do not know their vibe. I want to know their story so badly, and I cannot. We have to accept that life is going to be full of little mysteries of humans being weird, and we don’t know them now.

There are other ways to learn, right? There are amazing documentaries like Will and Harper on Netflix. Outstanding documentary. Lots of memoirs and stories and novels written by and about transgender people. There are so many ways to satisfy that curiosity itch if you know the person you’re talking to doesn’t want to share their whole story. So it’s always great to be curious. We just have to ask ourselves, is this person the right person for this question?

 

What If I Make a Mistake? – 32:18

 

BLAIR HODGES: What about when people feel like they made a mistake? They might have made a transphobic joke or said something insensitive or overstepped a boundary when they’re asking questions. What do you suggest people do in cases of messing up?

BEN GREENE: So, again, regret is a beautiful emotion. It means you have grown. Even if it’s instantaneous, that you say something and immediately regret it in that moment, that means you grew. So recognize that I am a person. I have just made a mistake. Okay? A mistake is not a moral failing. It’s an action item.

So I want you to ask yourself, why did I make that mistake? Make sure you understand why it was hurtful, and then understand, how can I do differently in the future? Maybe you made a joke you thought was perfectly benign, and you can tell from somebody’s eyebrows that it was not. You don’t know exactly why? You could say, “I can tell that joke did not land well. I want to make sure I understand why that didn’t land well. Could you help me understand? Could you help me understand? Have I said something that was upsetting to you?” 

BLAIR HODGES: I would also add, to say, like, if you don’t want to tell me, your signal is enough. That’s not a joke I’m going to be making anymore. I actually don’t really need to understand. I can figure that out. If you don’t want to talk to me about it, I’ll go do some homework.

BEN GREENE: Absolutely. Because they are already upset at us, so we don’t want to, you know, poke the bear too much. So saying, “I need to understand why it was hurtful, and I need to make steps to not do it again.” Because an apology doesn’t mean anything if you do the same thing five minutes from now. Right?

People who mess up my pronouns all the time—they would always say, “I’m trying, I’m sorry.” And I could learn to tell very quickly the difference between “I’m trying” as an adjective and “I’m trying” as a verb. Some people just liked to say, “I’m trying.” And then they would get my pronouns wrong every single other time I spoke to them. Other people were trying—they were putting in the effort. They would correct themselves. They would practice when I wasn’t around. They got better much quicker than my “trying” as an adjective family members did. I had infinite patience for people who were trying as a verb. Very little patience for those who were trying as an adjective.

Recognizing we have to take steps to get better, and better is going to be constant. There will always be mistakes we’ll make, always be things we can do better in the future. But all you can ask of yourself is to be a little better tomorrow than you were today.

 

Joining Them on the Journey – 35:48

 

BLAIR HODGES: [laughs] Okay, let's talk a little bit more about exploration. We've touched on this before, but you talk about how some kids are trying to figure things out, and it's important to give people space to question and explore and to be on that journey with them without giving them the sense that your goal is to figure out if they're really trans or not, or something.

BEN GREENE: Yes, definitely. Before I got my top surgery, I had to see a therapist whose goal was called gender exploratory therapy, which is a softer, kinder form of pseudo conversion therapy. Essentially, a therapist would try to find any other reason that you might be transgender. So I would talk about real things that I was struggling with. “Hey, I think I should break up with my girlfriend. I think I'm suicidal.” And he would say, “Do you think you would still feel that way if you weren’t transgender? Does being a man make this harder?” And I was like, man, I just need help right now. Having a bad day.

BLAIR HODGES: But is it because of the trans, Ben?

BEN GREENE: [laughter] And so then, even if I was having legit questions or doubts, I knew that I could not tell him because my only job was to convince him I was trans so that he would report back to my parents, “Hey, Ben can have this surgery that he really, really has been hoping for.”

BLAIR HODGES: And by the way, little quick footnote, top surgery is the removal of breast tissue to shape the chest differently. Yeah, okay, go on.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. Top surgery was what I really wanted, and I knew that those sessions with that therapist were the barrier I had to prove myself, which meant I could not ask questions. When we support our kids right away, we make it safer for them to say, “Hey, I'm feeling a little confused about this.”

And maybe you model that on your own behavior. You say, “You know, I'm feeling a little confused about whether I want to dress this way or how I feel when people call me this thing.” Creating regular conversations, making it normal for other people to talk about, “I'm wondering this about what it means for me to be a woman.”

Or just talking to your kid about your own identity, making space for them to talk about theirs. As long as it doesn't seem like your goal is to sniff out any cracks in the theory that they're trans. When they feel like you see them as they are, they will trust you to be along with them when or if that journey evolves.

 

Navigating Other Relationships – 38:00

 

BLAIR HODGES: And while all this is going on, it's also hard to navigate other people, other relationships. It might be relatives, friends, grandparents, aunts and uncles, or whatever. How do you recommend people go about that?

BEN GREENE: Yeah, you know, I would really say follow your kid's lead on that one, which I know I am constantly just beating that drum of, “I don't know, ask your kid.” There are lots of ways that you can check in with your kid. Maybe you say, “Okay, do you want me to come out for you? Do you want us to have that conversation together? Maybe we've got a huge extended family. How about we write a letter and we send it out to everybody, and then I'll talk on the phone with anybody who wants to afterwards?”

BLAIR HODGES: It sounds like you're giving some options, too. You're not just like, “You figure it out, kid.” You're like, “Okay, here's some ideas. Where do you want to go?”

BEN GREENE: Absolutely. We are presenting our kids with a toolbox. We're not just saying, “Hey, can you imagine how to build a house?” We're saying, “Here are the tools. Which of them would you like to use?” And recognizing and making sure you ask them, “Are there any people you don't feel safe around? Are there any people you're worried about me telling?”

They notice things that we do not notice because they have likely been nervous and collecting data, seeing who laughs at what. And if they say, “Hey, I don't feel safe coming out to this person,” that's a really legit thing we have to listen to. It might be because they just assumed that all of the cranky old men are not going to be okay with their they/them pronouns.

But it might also be because they said something to them privately that was really inappropriate or unkind, or what they post on Facebook. Or, "Look, I know you're not on social media," so making sure we check in with our kids about, “What are your gut feelings? What are your concerns?”—we're listening to them and, again, just letting them lead the way.

BLAIR HODGES: And you emphasize not outing kids without their consent, that they need to drive that process. What about parents that might be on different pages? So you're in the same household, but you have a partner or spouse who's not on board. Or maybe an ex-partner, an ex-spouse, or an immediate caregiver. What are some ideas in that kind of circumstance?

BEN GREENE: Yeah, that is a really, really hard circumstance. I do not envy the folks who are in those positions. The biggest thing I would say is you’ve got to start by aligning on values. So do we align on the value that I love my kid, that I want them to feel loved by me? If we don't align on that value, then maybe that's a different conversation. If one of us is valuing love and one of us is valuing control and obedience, you get to decide what that value misalignment means for you and your partnership. And there are different things possible in different states.

But getting value-aligned and then asking a lot of questions. I can't get someone where I want them to go until I know where they're stuck. I can't give you directions to my house if I don't know where you're lost. So you ask, “It sounds like you're having a really hard time with our kid's pronouns, and that's been really hard for them. Help me understand. What are you stuck on? What about this is frightening or frustrating? Where are you at right now? What have you been hearing? What are your sources?”

I ask a tremendous amount of questions so I can truly understand because, for a lot of parents, maybe it’s, “I just don't want my kid to have a bad life.” Maybe it’s, “I just have been hearing this is a phase.” Maybe it’s misinformation. Misinformation is a multi-billion-dollar industry, and people get misinformed not because they are evil or stupid, but because they’re online. We have all been misinformed. So making a lot of space for asking questions is important. And when people feel actually heard, they’re more likely to want to move forward. Not always.

So at the end of the day, you get to decide where the line is of acceptable treatment for your kid and consider drawing a hard line, saying, “Okay, we need a year, and I want you to be trying with our kid’s pronouns,” or, “I want our kid to feel safe seeing you at family gatherings.” Wherever the line is. And if there's no hard line, that's okay too. That's a choice that your kid is also seeing you make. I know this is hard. I wish I had an easy, simple answer. It's such a challenging situation, and I encourage you to seek out groups like PFLAG, which have a lot of supportive resources for so many parents who have been in a similar situation.

BLAIR HODGES: A core value here that really stood out to me was when it comes down to it, someone's going to be uncomfortable in this kind of circumstance, right? Like if someone doesn't get it, they're going to be uncomfortable, or you're going to make your kid have to be uncomfortable. You get to decide who needs to be the one who's uncomfortable. And for me, I really want to prioritize the comfort of the marginalized person.

BEN GREENE: People get so nervous about stirring the pot. They say, “I'm just not going to do anything. Let's agree to disagree.” Someone is going to be uncomfortable, whether it's your partner because you called them out, or Uncle Joe because you said, “That's not funny,” or your kid because Uncle Joe is making inappropriate jokes. Neutral is not an option. Neutral is picking: “I'm going to let my kid continue to be uncomfortable.” They are watching you make that choice.

BLAIR HODGES: Exactly. Some parents talk about how difficulties can crop up in their family or their relationships and maybe feel a moment of resentment, like, “Gosh, why did my kid have to be this way?” or, “This is really hard,” feeling like this is either inconvenient or tough. What is your response to people who feel those kinds of feelings?

BEN GREENE: Yeah, my first, very first response is just a quick response of love: you are not a bad person for being upset that things are harder, that you are experiencing more turmoil in your family. It's okay for that to be stressful and frustrating. You are not a bad person for having these feelings.

The other thing I'd say is that we have to remember that that is a misplaced resentment. It's not our kid's fault that our family is not being as kind as we thought they were. And there's a quote I love about allyship that says: if you're trying to be my ally and the stones thrown at me aren't hitting you, you aren't standing close enough.

Real allyship is not going to make us popular. And at some point, we have to recognize that if somebody is mad at us for doing allyship, it's because they'd like to see more exclusion. They would not like to see that person supported. And you get to decide how important that person's opinion of you is.

Now, there is a grief of learning that people in our family were not as loving or as kind as we thought they were. That hurts. That's hard. And making space for that’s really important.

 

Using Ring Theory to Process Your Feelings – 44:33

 

BLAIR HODGES: Let's talk about that. You have a whole chapter called “Processing Your Feelings,” and you definitely focus on centering the feelings and experiences of the trans kid. They're the ones who are really going to get hit by the most stones, right. But you, as people are picking up on you, recognize loved ones might have complicated feelings about it.

And you could tell people to just get over it—stop making it about you, right. You could say that. But your whole chapter here is helping people process their feelings using this idea of ring theory. Talk about ring theory. This is helpful.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. So ring theory, I didn't create, and it was originally created to talk about people going through a devastating personal event. Essentially, when something happens to a person—obviously, a trans kid coming out is not a devastating event—but I think the framework is helpful. When something happens, a person is at the center. It happens to them, and everyone in their life is a series of concentric rings around them based on how close they are to the situation.

So we have the trans kid, we have parents, we have siblings. Next ring out, we have family members, extended family, teachers, community members. And as you get further away from the person, you get a further-out ring.

BLAIR HODGES: Therapists.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, therapists. Exactly.

BLAIR HODGES: Exactly.

BEN GREENE: When you are talking to somebody who is in a more central ring than you, it is only appropriate to direct comfort. When you are seeking support, you should look for someone in the same ring as you or in a ring that is further out than you.

Right. If somebody you knew lost their home in the LA wildfires, for example, I would not call them and say, “I'm feeling so much guilt and grief that you lost your home.”

BLAIR HODGES: This is hard for me.

BEN GREENE: Appropriate. Yeah. That is not what that person needs right now. I can call my friends who also have not lost their homes and say, “I'm feeling really worried about my family member. Are you also worried about your family members?” Right.

And again, our trans kid coming out is not someone burning a house down, but they're in a world that is really hurting them in a pretty tremendous way right now. They need support directed in. Your emotions are extremely valid. You can have whatever feelings you're going to have. That's how fear feelings work. We don't get to control what happens in our emotions. We can only control what we do about it, how much we let them drive the car, and how we process those feelings.

So look for people in your ring and in further-out rings than you, because it's not going to help your kid for them to hear all about your grief. You can grieve. That's okay. Feel whatever feelings you want. Your kid does not have the ability and the emotional space to process those emotions for you right now. They need to know that you're on their side.

BLAIR HODGES: This was really important—to not turn the kid into your therapist. To me, it's not really about honesty. I mean, I think a parent could say to a kid, “Hey, I really loved little girl you,” or “little boy you.” And I have so many memories of that and all these stories and things.

Maybe I could even still talk about that person. Can I still say she when I'm talking about the past you? Or can I still say he? I miss that person. And you do have all those feelings, but what is the kid supposed to do if you're putting that on the kid? Like you said, they're not in a place to have the emotional bandwidth or maybe even emotional maturity to reckon with those. And it might make them feel bad, actually.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. And it's really confusing for kids. I felt like I was the same person and everybody else was expecting me to be this total stranger. I was like, “Yeah, I'm the guy in all those memories. I was on all those vacations. There wasn't some random girl that I have killed. That was also me. I was just using a different name.”

And I really challenge families when they're thinking about grief to recognize, like, how many of those memories were specific—specific—to your child's gender identity?

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah.

BEN GREENE: How many of those were like, “Yes, let's all do the vagina dance”? Like, no, no, that's not it. We went on vacation to Aruba. It doesn't matter what my genitals or my gender identity or my pronouns were. And I know that those words might be like, “Wow, Ben, that was a lot.” But I think recognizing—

BLAIR HODGES: No, I think when you put it that bluntly, it really draws out what the root of it is. And it is a little strange when you—

BEN GREENE: Think about it, do we know they're actually gone? Do we know what else we are gaining? Right. Asking ourselves these questions, pumping the brakes on that grief, and saying, “My kid is right here in front of me, being so vulnerable. And that's amazing that they trust me with that. I am gaining something right now.”

BLAIR HODGES: And I've heard excited, supportive parents say things like, “I lost a son, but I gained a daughter.” And even that, when you frame it in terms of your loss—yeah.

BEN GREENE: Yes. You didn't lose your daughter. I was that person. I have grown. It's the same as when your kid—like, I went to college, math and elementary education major, and I called my parents and was like, “I think I want to major in theater.” They had to grieve that too. Our kids defy our expectations constantly.

We don't make quite as big a deal about it, and it's just that a lot of our expectations are based on gender, so we feel like all the expectations are dead at once. But I still got married. My parents walked me down the aisle. I'm probably going to have kids with my wife. All these dreams they had for me that were specific to my gender, as it turns out, weren't.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. You go through a list of the kinds of fears people have. Like you said, maybe they fear the future that they thought their child would have might not happen, or basic fears for their safety—which is very reasonable. Being afraid of their mental and emotional health and the higher risks of self-harm that happen with trans folks because of societal oppression.

They might have religious beliefs that are challenged. They might have scientific “beliefs” that are challenged—not realizing they just had a view of bad science. Like, I've heard people say, “Well, I believe in science and there's boys and girls and science says it, and I'm not letting go of that.”

So there are all kinds of fears that you want caregivers, friends, and loved ones of trans folks to process. And again, the important thing is there are plenty of resources they can lean on, not putting that on the shoulders of the person who's going through it. That's the key.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, absolutely. Go to therapy, join a support group, find a journal, go to the gym—find any place you can to process and work this out. Not with your kid—they are not qualified. Fine, they might be a master’s in social work person. Fine. Then pay them for their time, for their clinical hours. Your kid is not a therapist.

BLAIR HODGES: Get a friend who's a therapist and then take them on walks and get free therapy. That's my—just kidding to all my therapist listeners, although I would like to hear from them about how often that happens.

 

Joy Exercises – 51:10

 

BLAIR HODGES: Let's talk about some joy exercises and some ways to make the home better, more comfortable. You’ve got some just great practical ideas, some great tips about how to celebrate, how to really integrate your kid into your home. Talk about some of your favorite ideas.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, absolutely. So a big one is marking important dates in your loved one's transition, whether it is a date of a certain surgery or the day they came out. I celebrate my coming-out day—I call it my rebirth day. I celebrate my top surgery day. We always just get an ice cream cake that says, “Chop chop, baby.” That’s what I told my parents right before they rolled me back.

Having these moments where we celebrate these things is such a strong way of sending a message that says, “Hey, I'm not just tolerating this. I am not. This is not something that you put me through. This is a good thing worth celebrating.”

It doesn't have to mean, “I will be upset if you are no longer transgender.” But celebrating those moments is awesome and marking them as important. Having a gender re-reveal party where you celebrate your loved one's new identity, or a transition shower, or whatever it is—having those moments of celebration is amazing.

And then we can also do things like having a misgendering jar. Right, let's say we're early in the journey, and we're having a real tough time getting our loved one’s pronouns right. So we have a little jar on top of the pantry, and every time we use the wrong pronouns, that's a quarter or a dollar in the jar.

Then the kid gets to use a full jar to go out for ice cream because they most certainly need it if they've gotten misgendered enough that that jar is full.

BLAIR HODGES: I like, by the way, that you extend that to stuff outside the home, too. Like, if someone else is misgendering them, you could have a deal with them. Like, “Hey, I'm going to put a dollar in the jar if this happens to you out in public” or something. We're going to try to find a way to do something happy about this.

BEN GREENE: Finding a way to say, “I recognize this is hard, and we have now built together what the reaction to this might be,” rather than saying every time you need to come up with a new way to respond, to correct somebody, and to decide whether or not it's worth it to critique me—even though I used the wrong pronoun 10 seconds ago and you also corrected me—then we take that mental wheel spinning out of it when we just say, “Okay, dollar in the jar.”

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, I like the idea of putting up new photos, too—getting new photos. And here I think this is some good tips for parents. Just dealing with teens in general is kind of being into their fashion. Being, a lot of times, parents—maybe more so in the past—very much policed appearance and it was all about controlling kids’ appearance.

I like the idea of sitting down and being like, “Hey, let's look at some haircuts or hairstyles. Maybe we're going to take you to a barbershop, or maybe we're going to take you to a salon. What do you like?” Being part of that. They might need some new clothes that could help mitigate their dysphoria. You talk about the giant hoodie being a staple for you.

BEN GREENE: Yes, the giant hoodie is very much a hallmark of trans masc fantasy fashion. I remember my mom, when I first came out, was having a really hard time and was like, “Well, you can wear gray because gray is a really masculine color,” and she was not really on board with me wearing men's clothes.

I really remember the first time she came home from the mall and was like, “Hey, I got you these couple of colorful men's button-downs. This seems like your style. Do you like these?” She started to learn my style and buy me men's clothes, or just take me shopping and say, “Okay, what do you like? What feels good?”

Having those moments sent such a clear message of support: “Okay, let's help you find a new style.” And then I would have fashion shows for my whole family, like, “Hey, look at all these cool new button-downs that I just got.” They could get excited with me.

That meant so much to know they were having fun on this journey with me because it's not meant to be a sad, hard, lonely, business-casual journey. It could be fun. Fun, right?

BLAIR HODGES: I mean, this gets us back to that subtitle of the book, A Joy-Centered Approach to Support. And again, I want to remind people, the book is called My Child Is Trans, Now What? by Ben V. Greene.

 

Dealing With Minority Stress – 55:13

 

BLAIR HODGES: So we talked about your high school experience at the top of the interview. Back then, you talk about working as hard as you could to have an answer to every question, to kind of be the model trans minority.

By the end of high school, you were actually really burnt out by it. You felt like you wanted to stop talking about it and just go stealth and go on with your life because it took such a toll on your mental and emotional health. What kind of exhausted you most? And then how did you get back to it? Because now, as you said, it's like it's your career.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, I was so burned out because not only was I answering questions on behalf of myself—if it was just for myself, I could say, “Okay, another person wants to know why I use he/him pronouns. I'm not going to answer right now because I'm just so tired.”

But very quickly, once I came out, all these kids reached out to me, came out of the woodwork, and said, “Hey, you're trans. You came out. How did that go for you? Do you think they might be ready for me to come out?”

The weight was very clear: if I said something that made somebody upset, that made them insecure, or didn't answer their question, they were going to be even less inclusive to the next kid who came. It felt all of a sudden like it was my responsibility to make the school safe enough for all these kids.

I was just taking on a tremendous amount of responsibility because none of the adults were doing that right. I was writing the policies, I was teaching the health classes. In some ways, that was fun—to have a lot of adult responsibilities. In other ways, it was a lot. I was a kid, 15 years old, and taking on the role of all the adults who failed to show up.

I have a statement I like to make that sometimes grinds people's gears or makes them a little nervous. But there's no such thing as an old soul. There's only a child who you let down. It's a heavy statement, but I was an old soul because I had to be to be safe.

That was really hard. People only ever saw me as a trans person. They didn't want to talk about my hobbies, my interests, my classes. I was just a trans person, and then their conversation was over once I asked another question. I was a trans person who happened to be Ben.

When I went to college, the people I was meeting had some questions, sure, but generally they'd already had them answered. They'd met trans people before. So all of a sudden, I was Ben, who happened to be a trans person.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah.

BEN GREENE: Learned how to set boundaries and how to say, “There are certain stories that are really personal to me that I don't tell anymore. I don't tell stories that really upset me to share or that just feel really deeply personal, because those stories, for me, are a gift that I will choose to give—that vulnerability to others.”

Building up that strategy of doing this intentionally and getting to choose this, and being able to put this down at the end of the day—I think when I was a kid, I did not really have very many spaces or people who I knew I was never going to have to answer a question for. I was that for everybody, and that was exhausting.

Now I know, as a trans adult, when my friends come over to play board games, they are not asking about politics unless I say, “Okay, I've got a little extra energy today. What political questions do you all have?” And then they will ask all their questions, but they wait until they know I've got room for it.

I know that my wife doesn't wonder whether I'm really a lesbian. She's good. She's got me. She's here. We're locked in. So having those boundaries has been really helpful.

It will definitely always be a wound in my heart that I did not get to have a childhood as myself. I had a childhood as a person who, you know, before I transitioned—and then I was an adult. People think I'm a lot older than I am because I've been an adult since I was 15.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah, you really highlight minority stress theory, and this is talking about how to protect a person's mental and emotional health. You went through it. What does minority stress theory teach us about this?

BEN GREENE: Yes. Minority stress theory essentially developed about 25 years ago, in the late '90s, to talk about the ways that being a member of a minority group—and especially being multiply marginalized, like being a trans person of color or a disabled woman—affects our mental and physical health.

It talks about the impact of actual and anticipated discrimination on our blood pressure, our sleep, our ability to focus and concentrate, our diabetes risks—so much of our health. Because I'm walking through the world, spinning those wheels, like I mentioned earlier, always trying to figure out who around me is safe, spinning those wheels is not a neutral act. That's not good for us. It's not good to always be worried: “Am I safe right now?” That's really challenging.

So making sure that we can build spaces—the biggest resilience factors for minority stress theory that protect us against those physical and mental health impacts are things like community connection, connectedness, and pride. Not being isolated, feeling like there are other people like us, feeling pride in our identities, and having people around us who give us love—have positive health impacts.

Your child's health will be better if you love them. This is scientifically proven. It really cannot be understated: the role that building and finding safe spaces our loved ones can go to—whether that's just in our house with one friend over, or going to a weekly community support hangout, or watching movies with trans characters—anything we can do to contribute to that safety, that pride, that connectedness is so critical.

 

Affirmative Therapy Versus Other Approaches – 01:00:45

 

BLAIR HODGES: And you mentioned earlier the therapy that you had, that seemed to kind of try to figure out if you were really trans, or try to make everything about whether you were trans or not. The book lays out kind of three types of therapy, broadly speaking, that as parents or caregivers are thinking about getting their kiddo into therapy, they might wonder about.

You talk about affirming therapy, a sort of investigation therapy—which is like the kind you experienced, where they're trying to figure out if you're really trans—and then there are still examples of conversion therapy, where being trans is wrong, evil, or bad. The purpose of that therapy is to try to shape that person, change them, make them not trans, convince them that they're cisgender.

When people hear “affirming therapy,” they might mistake that for this culture war idea, like “They're converting our kids and turning them all trans.” And if you take them to an affirming therapist, that means they're going to force them to be trans or make them trans. That's not what affirming therapy is about.

Give us a quick idea of what affirming therapy means.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. Affirming therapy starts by saying, “When you tell me who you are, I believe you and I support you. I will use the correct language to refer to you, and I will follow your lead.”

I have had three therapists: I had my therapist when I was really early into coming out, I had that therapist in the middle, who I had some challenges with, and now I have a therapist who is a highly affirming member of the LGBTQ community. She is the only one with whom I can question my gender identity, even though she is the most confident about identity. It’s when I feel seen that I am safe to explore.

We need a safe kind of home base to come back to, to know if I say this question, you're not going to immediately start using the wrong pronouns for me—because then I don't feel safe anymore.

So affirming therapy just says: you lead the way. I will see you however you tell me you want me to see you.

BLAIR HODGES: Therapy can be really important. And again, it's something to really take the temperature on and be plugged into a young person and where their mental health is at. Therapy can be life-saving. It's a tool that I'm grateful exists.

 

Be the Person You Needed When You Were Younger – 01:02:44

 

BLAIR HODGES: Going back to an earlier question, so we talked about the stresses that you went through and the strains on your mental health. What brought you back around to making this the focus of your career?

BEN GREENE: Yeah, you know, kind of fell into it. I was in college, planning to be a third-grade teacher, and I had an opportunity to give a TEDx talk. I gave this talk, and it totally blew up online. All these companies found it and said, “Wow, that was amazing. Do you do this professionally?”

They even said, “We'll give you $100.” I was like, “Wow, $100. That's so much ramen. This is amazing.”

BLAIR HODGES: Ramen. Yes.

BEN GREENE: Taking the train down to New York City to give these presentations for conferences and workplaces and outdoors. After the second or third presentation, I was in the car with my dad going back to the train, and I said, “You know, I know I'm on the guaranteed career path to be a teacher, but I think I owe it to myself and to my community to see if this might be something. I think I might be really good at this.”

It took a lot of convincing to tell my parents, “I want to be a public speaker and make my own business.” They were very like, “Is that a real career path?” My parents, my wife, everybody was like, “What is this guy doing?”

I was really committed that this is the world I want to build and this is what I want to be doing. So, in 2019, I filed the paperwork to graduate college early and leave my education program to go full time into speaking work. I’ve pretty much followed the philosophy: be the person you needed when you were younger.

So I'm going to help workplaces, I'm going to work with families, writing books and fantasy books with trans protagonists, just being that person that I know would have made such a difference for me as a scared, lonely trans kid. Getting to be that so no other kids have to experience transition the way that I did.

BLAIR HODGES: And I love that you kind of found that yourself. You talk about the Off-Broadway play that you went to, where you saw a trans actor and were like, “Wait a minute. This is amazing.” This really touched you.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. I always call that my cry story. So warning: I had never seen a trans adult before. It did not occur to me, when I was first coming out, that I would grow up. I thought I would maybe go to college and live to around 20 and then just disappear.

Then I met this trans actor. I saw him performing in a play where he had a romantic lead and a happy ending. My mind was blown. I had never seen anything like it before. I sat in my seat, planning everything I was going to say to him. I was going to say, “Ian, I've never seen someone like myself represented on stage before. It gives me so much hope for myself and my future as a trans man.” We'd take a picture, he'd sign my playbill. It was going to be great.

We came into the lobby. I’m on one side, he’s on the other. I take one look at him, open my mouth, and just start sobbing. Could not get a word out. He comes up to me, pulls me in. He starts crying. We're crying in each other's arms. After a couple of minutes, he says, “This is it. This is why representation matters,” and told me the story of how he had the exact same thing happen to him 20 years before—when he first saw a transgender person on stage. That was an incredibly formative moment for me, for so many reasons.

BLAIR HODGES: It's like you experience this moment of truth beyond words. It took the words away. It was too true, too real to articulate, even.

BEN GREENE: Yes, absolutely. My entire worldview broke: my view that transgender people did not get to be adults, did not get to follow love. All of that was falling apart—while hugging this stranger and also person I knew perfectly well.

 

The Bullseye Approach to Community Support – 01:06:19

 

BLAIR HODGES: See, this is why community matters so much. And you have a whole chapter on community support. I really liked your idea of the bullseye approach.

BEN GREENE: You know, when we are looking for resources, people always jump to the big ones. Trevor Project is a popular one, and I love the Trevor Project. But they are trying to cast a net over the entire country to catch LGBTQ youth everywhere. That is a huge net. People are going to fall through those cracks.

When we are looking for resources, as well as when we’re looking to donate, give, or volunteer our time and other resources, the more local we get, the further our impact is going to go. Right? If I'm having a mental health crisis, I'm going to call the St. Louis Queer Support Hotline Squish because I know they know exactly what news article I'm freaking out about. I know they know who the local doctor is who might have extra availability. They are hyper-focused on supporting me. Their net is the same amount of string, just a lot tighter. It’s much harder for somebody to fall through the cracks.

So getting involved locally—as local as we can—following that bullseye: start with our metropolitan area, our city, our neighborhood, then go out to maybe our county, our state level resources, and then look to our national resources. Some things there are only national resources, but where we can, looking to donate locally, volunteer, and ask for support locally, we get highly tailored support and make a bigger impact.

$10 to the Trevor Project—I don’t know what they need my $10 for. And yes, they are run by a lot of small donations, so don’t not donate to Trevor Project. Don’t tell them I said please don’t donate. But $10 to my local trans community center puts a meal on somebody’s table who wasn’t going to eat this week. I know exactly where that $10 is going and just how badly they need it.

BLAIR HODGES: All right, well Ben, for the sake of time I’m going to skip over some questions about medical transition and how it works. If people are curious about that, we have an earlier episode with Eris Young, and we talk about their book They/Them/Their there. We also have some discussion about medical transition in future episodes of Relationscapes.

 

Changing the World – 01:08:27

 

BLAIR HODGES: Right now I want to talk about your chapter on changing the world. We’re seeing a huge wave of disinformation and misinformation about trans folks. These are truly difficult and scary times. Trans people are being used like a political football right now.

You suggest that when we’re thinking about how to convince people—because we’ve got to have these conversations, we need to persuade people to care—you suggest we start by figuring out if a person is actually open to learning or if they’re just trolling or acting as a political activist whose mind is made up. How can people determine who it’s worth talking to?

BEN GREENE: Yeah. Number one general litmus test: if you’re in a comments section, the answer is no. [laughter] They are not trying to have a productive political conversation in a Facebook comment section.

So first, take the conversation—where possible—into a safe one-on-one environment. If you don’t feel safe in a one-on-one setting, whether that’s a phone call or in person, that’s a big red flag. Your body, your nervous system, is telling you this person is not safe.

If they’re making comments about violence, retweeting QAnon, or are really big Elon Musk fans—

BLAIR HODGES: J.K. Rowling.

BEN GREENE: “Big” J.K. Rowling “fans.” She’s a notorious leader of the transphobes in the UK, writing policy, not just being mean online. She’s having tangible negative impact. I digress.

We have to recognize that we should always leave room for people to surprise us. I have a lot of people in my life who I never would have expected to become supportive. But it’s hard to hate up close.

So recognizing that misinformation doesn’t only work on bad people or stupid people, we can ask questions to find where we can align. “Hey, we both love our family member, right? We want them to feel like they want to come home for Thanksgiving, but they’ve stopped coming. I wonder if that’s because of the jokes you make every year.”

Asking questions like that helps you figure out where they’re stuck and where you can align on values. If they’re frequently laughing it off or constantly parroting slogans, they’re probably not going to be open.

You can also ask point-blank: “Hey, I want to talk to you about this. I’m curious if you want to know what I have to say—and I want to know what you have to say too.” It has to go both ways.

People can tell. Just like I can tell when somebody thinks I’m some woke mind-virus left nut job, people can tell when you come into a conversation thinking they’re a redneck Bible-thumping bigot. They’re just as closed off as we are when they sense that.

Coming into the conversation saying, “I genuinely want to hear what you have to say,” doesn’t mean, “Oh, maybe they’re right. Maybe I don’t deserve rights all along.” That’s not what it’s about.

I see you as a person with baggage, fears, and trauma. And trauma’s never the word they’re going to use, but it’s a word we should use much more often when we talk about deeply conservative rural folks or really hateful people. They’ve got a lot of wounds that make them cruel.

Making space for them to talk about how they formed their opinions, what they’re worried about—if they’re just making violent comments, if they’re really angry—maybe that’s not the right conversation to have. Or maybe we can have it in little pieces, just reminding them about the impact of their words.

“You can believe whatever you want. Your nephew doesn’t want to see you anymore. Does that feel like what family is supposed to mean to you? Your Facebook political beliefs are worth sacrificing seeing your brother?”

BLAIR HODGES: But Ben, that's because they're so close-minded against my transphobic attitudes.

BEN GREENE: So much for the tolerant left! [laughter]

 

Relentless And Real Optimism – 01:12:17

 

BLAIR HODGES: You also say you've sometimes questioned yourself, whether you're doing enough. And that's interesting to see because this is part of your life—you’ve also made it part of your career.

But you try to remind people that the quote here is, “There's no such thing as enough.” Now, that might sound discouraging. That might be like, “Well, if there's no such thing as enough, then I'm going to go watch TV. See you later.”

But you actually make this sound optimistic, and it speaks to the kind of hope that you have right now.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, you know, I am, above all else, relentlessly optimistic because I know there are so many people who are doing everything they can, which looks very different for different people depending on their bandwidth, capacity, resources, and knowledge. There are different levels of involvement, but there's never going to be a button someone can press—

That's the equality button. That somebody is going to press the button and get all the credit and everything will be fixed. There is no technical ticker-tape finish line that we will cross where there will be no more fights to fight. That's not what victory is going to look like.

It will be a series of countless small actions and countless small victories that pile up like an avalanche into big actions and big victories. But they are all just a series of small actions.

So there's no such thing as enough, because “enough” implies that the world will be fixed. If I have done enough, there will always be further to go. So there's no such thing as enough. You can never do enough, which also means that everything you do is enough because you are doing your best, trying, and getting involved.

Some people are so afraid they can't do enough that they don't start at all. Start by doing something that is enough because you are trying. So just keep recognizing that we're looking for those little victories. We are not trying to press the equality button and win on day one. We will always be moving forward.

 

Privilege Is a Superpower – 01:14:01

 

BLAIR HODGES: Now, that's a really hopeful way to end, and that would be an obvious question to end with so that everybody feels happy and good. But I want to ask this next: allyship is a lifelong journey, and mistakes are going to be made. Sometimes people are going to get called out, and sometimes people who want to be allies are going to mess up.

I wondered if you had any stories about that, where you learned something new about it—like, “Ooh, you got called out for something,” or where it was a moment of growth for you.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, absolutely. I think a big, really interesting learning journey about allyship for me has been as I have started passing more as male.

I've learned that I exist now on both ends of the privilege spectrum. I am a transgender person in Missouri—one of the most targeted, vulnerable groups right now.

And when people don't know that, I am a white man with relative financial comfort and a wife who is also white, and we have stable housing. So I'm on both ends of the privilege spectrum.

When I first transitioned, I didn't go on testosterone. People all thought I was either a lesbian or a little boy, so nobody was really intimidated by me. A few years ago, my shoulders got broader and my voice got deeper.

I remember I had spent a lot of my young years as a girl learning ways to keep myself safe, including: if you get on public transportation late at night, find another woman and sit next to her—you will keep each other safe that way.

So one night, I got on a bus at midnight. There was a woman, and I said, “Okay, I gotta keep us both safe. I'll sit next to her.” All of a sudden, she tensed up, and I had this moment of, “Oh, whoa.”

I know I did not become any more threatening or violent, and I know that she doesn’t know that. And I can't say, “Don’t worry, I’m not creepy,” because that’s way creepier. I recognized that the way I am perceived is very different now that I’ve got a beard and a deep voice.

So I both need allyship as a trans person, and as a white guy, I’m always giving allyship to my friends who are women, my friends who are people of color. I am constantly learning new ways about how the way I’m perceived sometimes is as a threat.

Sometimes it means people take what I say way more seriously than they would coming from a woman, a trans person of color, or a trans kid. I’m a trans adult, so sometimes this appearance gives me extra credibility that I can use to support other people.

Other times, it means I need to do extra legwork to make sure a woman alone in the gym with me knows that I am not staring at her butt or doing things that might make her feel uncomfortable.

I’m always figuring out how I can show up in a way that is compassionate, safe, and using whatever privilege and positionality I have to be an ally to other people.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah. So that advice goes to everybody: be aware of your positionality. In other words, recognize how you appear and how you come across can impact and affect other people. See yourself in relationship to others, and then act in ways that make people feel safe and supported.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, absolutely. Privilege is not a moral failing. It is a superpower that you can choose to use to help other people.

BLAIR HODGES: That's Ben V. Greene. We’re talking about his book My Child Is Trans. Now. What a joy-centered approach to support. You can follow his Substack, Good Queer News. Also, check out his website, bgtranstalks.com.

 

Regrets, Challenges, & Surprises – 01:17:27

 

BLAIR HODGES: All right, Ben. We always like to close episodes with regrets, challenges, and surprises. This is a choose-your-own-adventure.

You can speak to any of these. Anything you would change about the book now that it's out? Any regrets you have about it? What was the hardest part about putting this project together, or something new that you learned? Because you've done a lot of talks, this book is kind of probably the outgrowth of a lot of work already, so maybe there weren't a lot of surprises here.

But you can speak to any of those.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. I'll say, with the regrets—obviously there are typos. They tell you as an author, the second your book is published, never look at it again because you will immediately find a typo. That's true. I know where it is. I'm not telling you, but I know where it is—it haunts me.

There are some comma splices. That's my weakness.

BLAIR HODGES: Yeah.

BEN GREENE: So regrets—that's always going to be there. Also, more things I've learned and more things I can add.

But challenge-wise, there were so many people who said, “You're not the right person to write this book. You just have a master's in social work. You are not a parent of a trans kid.”

So many people did not believe in me and believe in this book. “You don't have a big enough social media following.” But we've sold over 5,000 copies, which is just outstanding for a relatively unknown author writing a first-time niche nonfiction book—that's a hit book for any publisher.

BLAIR HODGES: I think most people don't realize how few books really sell and how few books are huge. Like, 5,000 copies is a very successful book.

BEN GREENE: Yeah. But there were a lot of people—I mean, it's been six years. And that was not just six years of me working on it—it was six years of really trying. I applied to like 85 agents before I found one, and we went out to so many different publishers. It was a real challenging journey to figure out.

There were moments where my agent sat me down and was like, “Okay, Ben, I think this book might be dead right now, and maybe we'll come back to it in a couple years and start thinking about what other books you might want to write.” Right? But there were a lot of moments where I didn't think this book was going to happen.

BLAIR HODGES: Wow. I mean, that surprises me. I have to say, Ben, I'm so glad that it did, because this is the book—the first book that I'll recommend to people. There's a lot of great books I don't, you know, and I'm talking to a lot of great authors. But the way you've written the book, what you decided to cover, and how you decided to cover it—I think is a really great and clear introduction.

This, to me, is the first go-to book.

BEN GREENE: Thank you. Really, that means so much to me. This book is my baby. I'm so excited to have it out in the world, helping people. That's all I could ask for.

BLAIR HODGES: Well, Ben, keep up the good work. Thanks for being willing to come talk to us about it on Relationscapes.

BEN GREENE: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been an absolute delight.

 

Outro – 01:20:02

 

BLAIR HODGES: Thanks for listening to another episode of Relationscapes. I really enjoyed talking to Ben, and I highly recommend following his Substack, Good Queer News. It's terrific. It's not the kind of toxic positivity that papers over the tough stuff we're facing right now, but it is hopeful and energizing while also being really realistic.

Also, thanks to those who went and reviewed the show in Apple Podcasts over the past couple weeks. I got one that called the show “one of the best podcasts of all time.” I'm not going to argue with that. I mean, that might be a stretch, but thanks for the vote of confidence. That's amazing.

You can rate and review the show. Just go to Apple Podcasts, search the show, go down to ratings and reviews, and leave your thoughts there. You can also rate the show in Spotify. That's just a star rating system, so I don't want to put my thumb on the scale too much, but, you know, five stars—that sounds good to me.

I'm just scrolling down through the episodes that I've put out so far and looking for the ones that resonate with this one. If you're interested in hearing more about transgender issues, you could check out Black and the Binary with KB Brookins, or What the News Isn't Telling You About Trans Teenagers with Nico Lang.

You might enjoy Trans in the Latter Days with Lori Lee Hall, or The Challenges of Parenting Trans Kids with Abi Maxwell, and of course, an episode with my friend Eris Young called Nonbinary Thinking. Many of the other episodes at least touch on transgender issues, so just go through the whole back catalog! Let's go!

Mates of State provides our theme song. I'm your host, Blair Hodges, a journalist in Salt Lake City, and I'll see you on another episode of Relationscapes.